Over-Playing Fish?

FAOL Community Fly Anglers Online
1

My question / post relates to “over-playing a fish”. In a nut shell, I’d like to know how that is defined, or what constitutes “over playing”? How does one know that they are over-playing a fish?

Let me go on record as stating that I always prefer to “reel” in a fish as quickly as I can, because I am ALWAYS worried that it will “get away”. This is an “instinctive” response regardless of the size of the fish, and I never think about it. It just happens every time I have a fish on.

But recently (and again) I have been told (perhaps “accused” is a better word) that using a small light rod is killing fish by over-playing them. And let me be clear here! This was stated, even though every fish I caught while this individual and myself were “together”, I “stripped” directly in (as always), and released the hook without ever taking the fish out of the water (small mouth bass and sunfish). I didn’t “play” the fish at all, and certainly not any more than he did with his #6. So I’d like to hear from those of you out there with some knowledge.

I readily admit that I have a distinct bias towards small, light, tackle, and have never owned a fly rod heavier than a #4. (I learned on and still use a 3 weight. See: http://www.flyanglersonline.com/review/061305.php) But I am honestly trying to “get the facts”, and be a conscientious angler and environmentalist. If I need to rethink my fly fishing, I’m ready to do so. But not just for “old wives tales” or to step in line with “someone’s opinion”. I’d like a little more “substance” than that. (Right now the Hardy Glass “Aln” (5’-0" 2 weight) is really calling my name.) But in an effort to see beyond my limited horizon and bias, and because I am looking to substantiate legitimate “claims” one way or another, I’m posting here (and elsewhere).

I have done a fair amount of research of my own into catch and release “best practices” over the years, and read many of the studies done (e.g. Beggs et al., 1980; Gustaveson et al., 1991; Tufts et al., 1991; Ferguson and Tufts, 1992; Cooke et al., 2003a; etc.). I believe I have a pretty good understanding of the physiological implications in playing a fish, and its subsequent handling and release.

But in all of these studies, and in all of the recommendations I have read / seen I haven’t seen any specific “signs of stress” identified for the angler to look for, or any other “definition” to enlighten myself in knowing if a fish has been “over-played”. My rule has always been: “If the fish can swim away with some “spunk”, it’s okay to let it go. Otherwise, work to revive it further.”

It might be noted that in the above mentioned studies, the “playing” was also vastly different. For example, in the Ferguson and Tufts (1992) study, the trout were chased (played) for 10 minutes. While in the Cooke study (2005) they were chased for 30 seconds. Truth be told, I don’t believe I have ever “played” a fish for even the 30 seconds. I just haven’t hooked into anything that was that difficult to get in (even with the #3). And if I think about it, thirty seconds is really a deceptively long time when it comes to trout fishing.

Again, I am bias and have very limited experience, and readily recognize this, so feel free to “enlighten” me.

Thanks for any helpful input you might have. And ultimately I’ll look to the fish for my answer. I just hope someone can tell me what to look for.

—David

2

A while back I read an article about the level of pain fish feel. The author was told by some people watching him fish “how could you?” because he caught them and then released them…they told him he should keep his limit and kill it as soon as he landed so fish wouldn’t suffer. I think that if you race your catch to your hands you might hurt it also.
You will never make everybody happy, there will always be somebody who will scoff and will tell you “you’re doing it wrong”. In my humble opinion I think one should play the fish for a reasonable amount of time but that’s only half the task, when you land it how do you put it back in the water, do you just toss it or you take the time to slowly help the fish get back on its fins?
Most fly anglers have a very strong sense of respect for the fish that bring joy to them and I’m sure you do the same for your catch otherwise you wouldn’t be asking about this.
I think that playing the fish is ok as long as you don’t take it to the point where the fish dies in your hands…I’m relatively new to fly fishing but I wanted to share my opinion with you.
I hope you find your answer here, these gentlemen know a lot about fly fishing.

3

The problem here is I’m not sure that you can “get the facts”, because I not aware of any scientific study on the topic specifically. We do know, however, that mortality is related to time on the hook (among other things). Depending on the size of the quarry, a light rod may or may not be fine.

That being said, if you are conscientiously fishing catch and release, then you have an obligation to use as heavy a rod as you can, not as light as you would like. A heavier rod allows you to place greater leverage on a fish, especially large ones. This will shorten the fight. Period.

Now you will undoubtedly hear from all sort of light weight rod enthusiasts who will dissagree – disingenuously in my mind. I played with ultra-light tackle in my spinning days, and I did it for the same reason the light fly rod crowd does it, for the fight. Once I picked up the fly rod and adopted a purely C&R approach, the fight became irrelevant and the fish surviving became paramount.

Obviously, even proper C&R cannot completely eliminate fish mortality. But if you are prolonging the fight with inadequate tackle for your own personal enjoyment, then either re-evaluate your priorities or just own up to what you are doing.

4

I don’t think you will ever get to the real truth of the matter; only much debate.
We in all the anal political correctness that has bombarded this sport have even been even inundated that barbless hooks are no longer safe & should use this new system of fly patterns tied on a special plastic shank with a trailing circle hook (stinger style ???). No matter how careful you are there will be a small percentage of fish mortality in catch & release. That is one hard fact. Does that negate fishing with #32 midges & 8x tippett. You tell me.
Some very large fish will run ya like hell, & you just do your best without busting tippet.
This is true no matter what size pattern you use, what rod you use, or what tippet strength. No matter what I do or how careful I am, there will always be some anal, politically correct snob there to criticize (even the fact that I fly fish at all makes me a villain, along with being a archery hunter & wing shooter; doesn’t matter how many of my license dollars, Trout Unlimited. FFF, Ducks Unlimited, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, etc., etc., etc, in ad nauseum goes to conservation) frankly scarlet…I don’t give a damn.
And as to PETA branding me as the villain, they can go @%*# themselves !!!

5

I think it bears taking into account what kind of fish you’re after. If it’s carp or gar or sunfish or some hearty fish, then that’s very different than coldwater trout fishing…

I regularly use a 3wt for carp - and have fought some lengthy battles. But I’ve never ONCE come back to see a dead carp on any of the waters I fish. And every fish has swam away on his own accord, even after battles of 30 minutes or longer.

6

Personally, I also try to get fish in as quickly as possible. I fish 6x regularly on glass for relatively large trout (in rivers primarily) and usually don’t have any problem getting them in really quick. There always going to be the occasional hot fish who decides to head for the ocean…with those guys, it’s not going to matter what size tippet or what size rod you have. plus, you can put a helluva lot of pressure on a fish with a 3 wt…

If you’re overly concerned while fighting a fish, just point your rod directly at the fish…I’ve done this a few times when you have that fish that fish that takes you far into your backing…

7

That being said, if you are conscientiously fishing catch and release, then you have an obligation to use as heavy a rod as you can, not as light as you would like.

I’m afraid I’ve got to disagree with that.

By that rationale, I CAN get away with using a 9’ 8wt on the creeks I fish. It may not be the ideal choice for the flies i’m throwing, but it can be done. I could use a big, heavy stick of a rod against which no fish in the stream could put up any resistance. For me, though, that would kind of defeat one of the best parts of fishing: those few moments of excitement as your rod flexes and dances with the weight of a fiesty fish. Instead, you’d hook a fish and bring him in coasting atop the water’s surface.

I’ve used only 3, 4, and 5 weight rods for trout and vastly prefer the 3. I’ve been fishing C&R (for trout) for years, and in not one circumstance have I had to keep a fish i’d have liked to release because it was mortally injured or played to exhaustion.

In fact, I think that, for the good of the fish, it’s important to have a brief moment of a fight, otherwise, a totally fresh fish will be far too excited in the net, and risks injuring itself by thrashing around in there with a hook attached.

Like others have said, this can and will be debated forever, but that’s my story and I’m stickin to it.

8

I bet they experience far less pain and discomfort on a 3wt, then they do in a creel;)

I think folks tend to over-think things sometimes.

I love trout fishing with 3-4wt gear. Playing the fish is one of the greatest aspects of flyfishing for me. As is bring a fish to hand. Not fish count or anything else. I practice C&R for management purposes only. Not because I feel there is anything wrong with catching and frying up trout.

9

Okay everyone… let’s hold our horses a little bit here.

While the Ultralight debate does have some implications here and was the impetus for my concern / question. I am not asking about the “ethics” of using UL equipment etc. I’m perfectly comfortable in my equipment choice, and could provide a multitude of reasons why.

What I want to know is how does one know if you have “over-played” a fish and it therefore has a reduced chance of survival. I’m not sure “over-played” is even the correct term anyway. From all I’ve seen and heard, any fish large or strong enough to break your tippet will be played to a point of exhaustion before it can (or will) be “brought to hand”.

It might take a few seconds, or (I have heard but never experienced) minutes/hours. But in my fly fishing experience, EVERY fish I have caught has been done so in seconds from the time of “hook-up”. And most of those have been directly reeled in without too much difficulty. That is why I was once again stunned by the comment I mentioned in my post.

Anyway, the question is: What are the signs of “mortal exhaustion”, regardless of whether the fish was taken with a 000# or a 12#? And specifically, I liked to know the “signs” as they pertain to Trout and Bass.

—David

10

I think it’s pretty easy to see those signs, if the fish goes belly up when you place it in the water, swims erratically or if it doesn’t recover after a while you know there is something wrong. If there is a scientific way to determine that I really don’t know about it.
Something else to take into consideration is what happens to the fish when it goes back to its habitat. Think of all the predators in the water waiting to see a weak fish to swim by, even if the fish is carefully placed back in the water it will be weak and/or confused even if for a short while. That’s when it could become a nice meal to the larger fish.

My point, people has a lot of reasons to try to ruin it for us…I have decided to enjoy what I do, be respectful and over all not listen to people.

11

Then why ask the question? Either you are concerned or not. It is an ethical issue because of how you judge yourself or others judge you…the fish do not care.

And as far as mortality, there really is no reason why, as many seem to assume here, that you will see immediate evidence of fatality. A “revived” fish can still swim away to die later on for a host of reasons associated with being caught, physiological damage as a result of the fight being one of them.

As pointed out, some species are heartier than others, but premise remains that either you are maximizing your own enjoyment, or trying to preserve a fishery. Perhaps this is a moot point because we know were are guaranteed a mortality rate with C&R, but in my mind it make no sense to do more damage than necessary.

12

whatfly:

I asked the question so that I can know what signs a fish exhibits upon “capture” that would indicate it has a higher risk of perishing upon release than one not “over-played”.

Faulty though it may be, my thinking is that if I know what to look for, the fish will tell me if I am putting them at a higher risk of being fatally “played”, and I will not be relying on someone’s opinion one way or another. (Regardless of what equipment I may be using at the time.) I can then also experiment and come to my own conclusions through observation as to the efficacy of the various “debates”, one of which you have so clearly stated your position on.

While I have also offered my opinion and bias, that is what is has been based upon: opinion and bias. I’m now simply looking for “fact”, or at the very least “scientific consensus” to base my opinion on. I believe (as someone’s signature says) “the fish are never wrong”, and if I can understand what they are telling me, I can make the most informed (and correct) decision possible as to how I proceed from here on my fly fishing journey.

Regards,

—David

13

David -

I believe that is my signature that you are paraphrasing ??

Unfortunately, it is the fish who are always right, and we really have no way of scientifically, or even through close personal observation over a sustained period of time, determining and describing "what signs a fish exhibits upon “capture” that would indicate it has a higher risk of perishing upon release than one not “over-played.”

I started to reply to your post earlier, but didn’t complete the process. My post started out something like - If you ask an impossible question, you have to expect impossible answers, or at least answers that don’t seem to answer your question.

I think the fact that you ask the question in the first place is much to your credit. It seems to me that if you follow your instincts about when and where to fish, and how to land and release fish, few of the fish you do catch and release will die from the experience. Better to trust yourself in this situation than a critic, or a bunch of critics who may well simply be pursuing some agenda that has nothing to do with what you are looking for.

John

14

John:

You are correct in assuming that I was referencing your signature. Forgive me for getting it wrong, but at least I had the correct meaning!

As you can probably tell, I “lurk” here from time to time, and try to pick up information. Not real big on posting though, as I never seem to be able to articulate clearly what my question is.

—David

15

I think “overplaying” is overplaying to exhaustion, when a more skilled fisher could have subdued the fish much more quickly. The term “overplaying” implies that one can “underplay” and “correctly play” the fish. Therefore, I think overplaying is relevant only when viewed in terms of the equipment used and the skill of the fisher.

Most fly fishers underestimate the pressure even a light tippet can place on a fish when an optimum rod angle is used to fight the fish. A rod angle that elevates the rod tip above the fish so that the angle of the line from the fish to the rod tip is 45? from the horizontal, reduces the horizontal pull on the fish to 50%. The other 50% is lifting the fish and gravity is bending the rod. It is contributing nothing toward bringing the fish toward you.

If the rod is instead placed horizontally to the water and even underwater, all the pull goes to pull the fish toward the angler. This is the technique that tarpon fly fishers use to defeat large and powerful fish. They will actually put the rod tip under the water to get a direct horizontal pull on the fish. They cannot afford to waste any line pull toward lifting dead weight. It all needs to go toward bringing the fish to the boat.

If you doubt what I am saying, attach a dead weight to the leader and try pulling the weight along the floor with the rod angle up at 45? and then parallel and horizontal to the weight. It will move with less pull when the rod is horizontal and at the level of the weight.

Secondly, a 3 wt rod and a 6 wt rod can put equal tension on the fish. How is that done? By pointing the rod toward the fish. When the rod is pointed at the fish, the flex of rod is out of the equation. We break off snags by pointing our rod at the snag and pulling hard, don’t we. That is the way to exert maximum pull on the line.

Thirdly, a fish fights by resisting the direction of pull of the line. When we hold the rod to our right, it will pull toward the left. If we hold the rod to our left, it will try to pull to the right. We can use this tendency to “walk” the fish to us. When we have the rod to the right and the fish is pulling to the left, switch your direction of pull to the left, and the fish will come to you until it begins to pull to the right. Then switch to the other side.

Unless changing the direction of pull allows the fish to reach a snag or allows the fish to reach a stronger current that places you at a disadvantage, you can defeat even larger fish on lighter tippets by using the techniques above.

So when a fly fisher uses less than optimum technique to defeat a fish and that fish is exhausted as a result, I think that is overplaying a fish.

16

you say tomato, some say tomahto

17

Hummmm… actually, I’ve always thougfht that 3,201 angels can balance on the head of a pin.
I don’t “know” that the trout I release go on to live. I “know” that 99% of those I’ve release swam away looking strong. I also know that some number over the last 30 years didn’t look so good. As NJ wrote, it’s management. Wulff was obviously right, the resource is much too valuable to be used once only. As has everyone else, I’ve caught trout that had bruise marks from having been caught before. Itwould seem they survived.
Coughlin

18

There are some important things being ignored here. Equipment is only part of the issue, and it’s relevance to the question is dependant on other facts, such as:

species of fish
size of fish
water temperature/dissolved O2 levels
size of body of water being fished (how much running room the fish has).

All these and a lot more go into determining how long and therefore on how light of tackle a fish can be played without creating a situation where fish mortality becomes a concern. David’s question is complicated because a change in any of these changes the whole equation.

The big reason there is no definitive answer to your question, David, is that there is no definitive set of parameters to test it in a meaningful way. Every situation is going to be different.

19

To throw a few more logs on the campfire, I offer these tidbits of food for thought:

  1. Just this past spring, I was lucky enough to hook and land a large (in the 20" neighborhood) tiger trout. I was fishing in an area I’d never been before, but I’d done my homework and knew I’d be catching, typically, 10-15" trout, so I took my 3wt. As many know, there’s quite a difference between the fight of a 15" and a 20" trout, and I did feel a bit undergunned on the cork end of my 3wt. I had to play the fish very carefully to keep him attached. After a few minutes (yeah, minutes), I brought him to net. He was good and tired by that point, and on at least 3 occasions, barely avoided a netting attempt to continue the fight. When I got him in, he was out of gas. I took 2-3 quick photos, then got him back in the water. In a few moments, he righted himself, and was holding in the slower current under his own power. The odd thing was that for a good ten minutes, he stayed there, right beside me. He was upright, breathing, and moving a bit, just not swimming back to a lie. I just surmised he was catching his breath. I’d handled him and released him, so I must not have been seen as a threat big enough to warrant a move to faster current until he was good and ready.

  2. On the lake erie tribs, I was steelhead fishing for the first time. Little did I know, I was a bit outmatched, with my wal-mart fly fishing kit (5wt). It took forever, but I finally managed to hook my first one. It was probably the longest fight I’ve ever had with a fish, going at least 5 minutes (I actually thought to check my watch). Eventually, after several failed attempts to land him, I got him up on the shore. After unhooking him, I carried him back to the water, and he immediately took off under his own power, never even showing the slightest signs of fatigue.

  3. Also in erie, on more occasions that I’d like to recall, I’ve seen fish that look like punk rockers, with more body piercings than an amazon witch doctor. If you’re lucky (and your catch isnt), it wouldnt be surprising for someone to collect a half dozen or more flies from a single fish’s lips, dorsal fin, belly, and tail. These fish have clearly been hooked and fought before…and they still hit a fly and put up a great fight. If a fight exhausted a fish to the brink of death, how do these fish manage to do it over and over again?

I guess I’m not really wanting to take sides on this one. I feel it’s imperative to use good sense and respect these animals we love so much, but I also feel its important to maintain a sense of perspective.

20

Since there hasn’t been much study on this how bout this for a theory… Using a heavy rod and ripping a fish in might damage the mouth or be more likely to rip the jaw or cause bleeding. A lighter rod might actually flex when a fish does a head shake preventing damage to the fish. I am just throwing in something to think about, I don’t prefer ultra light or ultra heavy rods when I fish. I fish with the rods I like and try to take care of the fish as best as I can to ensure survival. At the same time if I ever doubted a fish would survive and it was legal size I would take it home and fry it up in some butter. I think catch and release can be taken a little too far at times and I RARELY if ever have taken a fish home with me for any reason. I think we often forget that fly fishing and fishing in general has its origins and bringing in a meal. Nice to get back to your roots now and again.