Hunting

FAOL Community Fly Anglers Online
1

Hi LF,

Always enjoy your articles and this week piece was not exception, although on this occasion I was a little surprised at how some of the facts were presented. Initially I thought “keep your mouth shut Jamie, you are just being a little doe eyed and nationalistic”, and generally us Brits are a little understated about our country and rarely jingoistic; with the obvious exception of our sometime all too enthusiastic national sports fans.

You know crime levels in this country are getting out of hand and government after government that come in make vague promises of getting tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime; all the usual blah. Gun crime in particular is way out of hand, but thank fully due to the difficulty in obtaining firearms and the strict licensing of weapons for sporting purposes, it is no way near the levels that it could be. Latest statistics reckon there are some 300,000 illegal firearms in the country. Of these a percentage will be ?trophies? soldiers have picked up from the various conflicts we get involved in. Some are ?back alley? re-commissioned replicas or built from scratch weapons, which seems to be a booming cottage industry which recent legislation should see a decline in. The majority will be weapons which have been smuggled into the country through our all too porous borders with Europe.

As we all know newspapers are out to sell and sensational stories sell best. If you want to one can always find data to substantiate a certain viewpoint and paint a particular picture, it is where these ?facts? come from which count for most. For example it is in the interest of government departments to try and make the garden look rosier and the British Crime Survey [url=http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hosb1105.pdf:1b89e]http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hosb1105.pdf[/url:1b89e] which is the report on recorded crime in the UK, states that in 2003 there were 35,000 offences of possession of a weapon and in 2004 this figure was up by some 800 offences to over 35,500 and increase of almost 10% year on year. Now that is shocking weapon offences up 10% year on year, would make a great headline. Because of the numbers, the increase year on year can look huge and percentages of 53% and 40% appear massive and make great headlines but do not show the facts. Coupled with data sourced elsewhere and thrown into the mix, well, the picture is yours to paint. And notice the offence recorded is possession of a weapon. This can include knives, baseball bats or any other item used aggressively. The biggest concern I have about living in London is the number of youths who walk around with knives; I myself have had a knife pulled on me twice over the last 10 years, by teenagers, who seem to lack the understanding of the consequence for their actions.

I enjoy hunting and regularly wish we had similar gun laws to the US, however this is tainted by my experience serving my country and seeing up close what a single round can do. I have a theory that us Brits are so reserved because we a violent group of people and if we do not keep a lid on things, they get out of hand. I wonder how things would escalate if weapons were more readily available in the UK, ifs and ands.

There, I got it off my chest and feel better for it.

JME
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Member [url=http://www.ukbass.com:1b89e]www.ukbass.com[/url:1b89e]
[url=http://jamiercgriff.blogspot.com:1b89e]http://jamiercgriff.blogspot.com[/url:1b89e]

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JME

I am very glad you decided to get things off your chest. So I say thank you for letting us here “in the colonies” S know what is actually happening.

As a gun owner myself I tend to agree with Ladyfisher that gun control laws are not working. But so are allot of other laws. No law can prevent someone from doing or obtaining something if they have their mind set to do so. I will admit that we have way too many guns in this country. So much so that if the govt ever would try to disarm their citizens, there would be an uprising. And unfortunately allot of dead people. Eco Terrorists do more damage in this country than do anti-gun nuts.

Like you we are a violent people. But I have to admit that two years ago when I was in London, I was more concerned about getting my pocket picked than having sticking a gun in my face. That I am sorry to say is not the case here in the U.S.

Unfortunately there are not clear cut answers. There are irrational and emotional nuts on both sides of the issue. Throwing another law at someting will not solve the problem. All another law does is justify the jobs of those we have sent to represent us in our respective govt.

I do hope you Brits can keep a lid on this gun thing. As I said, we have way too many here in the hands of those that have to reservations about using them for violent means.

Good luck!

Dave

3

You are right Dave, there is no magic fix all, and more the shame as it ruins the enjoyment for the rest of us honest, law abiding people.

I remember reading a book by an American philosopher whose name I forget some years ago. He was talking about citizenship and liberty. The statement went along the line that our freedom was a contract between the individual and the State; the first victim of our liberty are crimes against the State which inevitably lead to the erosion of our liberties through the rewriting of our contract.

The pickpockets are rife in certain parts of London and especially target tourists. In the main they are illegal immigrants living below the radar or youths who are repeat offenders. It is an embarrassment to us that out guests risk getting robbed.

Every time I come over to the Colonies to pick up the rent, those striper boys up in Massachusetts send me packing and tell me what I can do with my tea. ;o)

JME
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Member [url=http://www.ukbass.com:a9df7]www.ukbass.com[/url:a9df7]
[url=http://jamiercgriff.blogspot.com:a9df7]http://jamiercgriff.blogspot.com[/url:a9df7]

4

JME

I think most of us here tend to forget that the real reason behind the right to bear arms. Being a fledgling country our government did not have the man power to protect those living on the frontier. Unfortunately today, some of us still think they live on the frontier and are in constant danger.

And while it may not be the case in your country, our police departments here don’t have the man power to adequately protect the civilian population. Let alone carry out the enforcement of all the laws that are on the books Yet some are worried that the police are going to break down their door and take their guns.

Ah Massachusetts striper fisherman. A rowdy lot at best. I hope to be fishing there in the fall. Those that I know are more in tune in drinking serious adult libations than tea.

Dave

5

If anyone questions my facts, or if I cherry picked the information, all you have to do is go to [url=http://www.google.com,:80beb]http://www.google.com,[/url:80beb] type in
British Gun Control and start reading.

Please note, most of the information is from British sources. If you read you will find it is even scarier than I protrait it.

LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL

6

LF

I don’t dispute your facts. But saying that crime in Great Britan is on the rise because their citizens don’t own guns is a bit of a stretch. We are the most armed citizenry on the planet and that hasn’t done a whole lot to deter crime.

And I hope you never have to take human life with a gun. You won’t be the same person once you do.

Dave

[This message has been edited by anglerdave (edited 23 January 2006).]

7

I am a Viet Nam Vet and I have a Permit to carry a concealed weapon. I pray to God that I never have to use it for protection, but, if my life is threatened, I am glad I have the Carry Permit. It is a proven fact that gun control does not work and never will. If someone wants to kill someone, they will do it with some sort of a weapon. If you really are serious about lowering the crime rate all you have to do is get the justice department to do their job. We have the laws on the books that will handle those people who commit crimes with weapons but we do not have the judges who will inforce the law. Too many people who commit crimes are “slapped on the back of the hand” and turned lose. That tells all others who are thinking about doing bodily harm to another that they can do it and not have to pay the price. Start making examples of those who do the crime and the crime rate will go down on it’s own. Make people think twice about doing a crime. As it is now, the punishment for crime is a joke. Too many lawyers and too much money. Make the punishment fit the crime and see what happens!

Just my 2 cents worth.

Warren

8

Dave,
It’s pretty obvious, you didn’t bother to go read the articles, newpaper accounts and government reports (theirs). Had you done so you would not have posted those comments.

LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL

9

Britain isn’t the only example. Time after time nations that went on strict gun control binges have reaped the reward of soaring crime rates. Australia come to mind. Shortly after they got rid of folks guns, armed home invasion became so en vogue across Australia that they actually repealed most of the gun bans…and now it’s going down again. Hmmmm…

States in the US that begin CCW programs have all seen a reduction in violent crime over the following several years…ALL.

Laws only work on law-abiding citizens. Legislation is a lousy tool for combating crime. It can often, as in the clear case of gun control, even be counter-productive. You want to reduce crime? Get tough on criminals. Put more cops with guns on the streets. You want to stop the next Columbine Massacre? Shoot the sorry ******** when they try it. But, of course, you have to have a gun inside the schoolhouse to do that.

The Palestinians started attacking Israeli school children on field trips several years ago. They had several massacres of defenseless children in a relatively short period of time. The gov’t mandated that all teachers be trained and equipped with semi-automatic rifles when on field trips. And that was the end of attacks on school kids in Israel.

Now we hear it’s knives in London. Guess what? When you ban knives you will find that the criminals continue to have them and if they don’t they use clubs. I have had the pleasure of being beaten with a club, stabbed with a knife, and shot with a gun. If I have to choose, I’ll take on the guy with the knife any day. But getting shot felt like getting hit with a hammer…a small club. The results are the same. If somoene wants to kill you, he’ll kill you with his bare hands…unless you stop him.

But I thought we were gonna talk about hunting.

My New Year’s resolution is to have more fun…even if YOU don’t.

10

I hesitate to bring this up because I can’t give you exact references…but I know I read it and I suspect it is true and you won’t hear much about it by the media…

Aren’t there a couple of cities that encouraged gun ownership and they now have some of the lostest crime rates…certainly less than those with the strictest laws.

or is this an “urban myth”?

11

Yeah, I also opened this thread to talk a bit about hunting, and instead it’s all about gun controll. Lemmee sum it up gun controll means hitting what you’re shooting at. That said I’ll now engage in some shameless bragging. My gun controll yesterday was excellent. The last day of 3rd duck split, and I managed 3 mallards, 1 wigeon, 1 teal, and 3 honkers. All that with just under 1 box of shells. Not bad for a day better suited to sunbathing. I also put a hypothesis of mine to the test and (partially) proved it correct. I had been watching movements of ducks and geese for quite sometime, and had been trying to find some pattern as to which fields they use to feed. For sometime now I had been noticing that alot of the mallards I was bagging had in addition to corn and wheat in their gullets, something that looked an awful lot like cow crap. Since alot of the farmers around where I hunt also raise cattle, and often graze the cattle in their cornfields. I had been noticing for sometime that the ducks and geese seemed to prefer the fields that were used for grazing. I decided that the thing to do was make some cow decoys. I took several sheets of 3/8 CDX and used a jigsaw to cut out the rough shape of a cow, then painted these various shades of black and brown. We set out the cows 2 days before we hunted the field, then the morning of the hunt put out 1 doz fullbody geese, 2 doz silhouettes, and a half dozen or so fullbody mallards. I’ll make a long story short - it was un-believable. I’d guess 90 percent or better of the geese that saw our spread decoyed straight in, no circling, no hesitating, just wings cupped and webbed feet down. All four of us were limited on geese by 9 o’clock, with a couple of mallards thrown it. By 9:30 we were picking up. We picked up the goose deeks first, and as we were starting to shag cows and mallards, we noticed a huge flock of ducks working our way. we dove back into the blind, and gave a few feeding cackles. The ducks started doing the tornado thing right over us, I’d guess there were 200 birds in that flock, and just like the geese they decoyed in and we waited till about 20 or so had landed before we started shooting. All four of us unloaded, and put alltogether 8 ducks down (6 mallards, 1 wigeon, 1 teal) So the moral of the story is GET SOME COWS IN YOUR SPREAD!!! I cannot stress enough how well this worked. I had hunted this field aprox 30 times over the last 2 years and always done well, but this was something else.

12

At last! A hunting story!

Our waterfowl season was great the 1st 1/2 this year and really horrid the 2nd 1/2. Stupid me, I waited for the 2nd 1/2…so I never even got to go.

My New Year’s resolution is to have more fun…even if YOU don’t.

13

Seems like the last that I heard, gun crime was down in the U.S., not up. But. I’m with you LF. There ain’t enough cops in this country to outnumber the criminals, so you’d better be prepared to defend yourself.

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LadyFisher… Bravo. As a hunter education instructor for over 30 years I have been trying to do my best to get this kind of information out. You are so very right in that the “media” just doesn’t want the people to hear the truth. The ability to carry concealed has been proven time and again to be a deterent to assault and other crimes such as rape etc.

Thanks again for using this forum to help bring this to light.

Michael (Wooly) Woolum
State Certified Hunter Education Instructor
Hickory, MS

15

In Mt. the definition of home invasion is premeditated suicide.You kick in a door here more than likely you will get blown back out.
yes we are a gun owning state but our gun crime lately seems to be tied more to people who have relocated to here from other areas.

Ps.in Mt we don’t do drive bys we stop and aim.it improves your hit ratio.

16

I don’t hunt. But I do have guns. It’s very simple – At top speed, with lights and siren, it takes the sheriff about an hour to get to my house. There’s no phone lines or cell service here either, we have to patch into 911 via ham radio. It would be crazy to live up here with no gun. Nuff said. DANBOB

17

LF,
Just wanted to chime in to say I enoyed this weeks piece written by you. While I may not agree with 100% of it, I do appreciate your stance, and wish that more americans had similiar views.

Jeff

18

Like JME I also was just going to let this issue slide seeing as when someone takes this strong of a stance on an issue there rarely is no changing it, and for the most part I don’t want to change it.

I believe every American has the right to hunt particularly if it’s to feed themselves. I also believe in the right to protect yourself and your family. I grew up in a house full of guns, have been shooting since I was a boy, served in the military, and am a gun owner as well.

However, I don’t the see the right to bear arms (for self defense or survival) justifying semiautomatic weapons that are designed for no other reason than spraying a room. You can pretend that they have a legitimate use, but when you look a weapon like a Tech 9 or any other number of similar, legal weapons on the market today, you have to ask “is this something that makes sense?”

Place on top of that ?legal? materials available for converting those same weapons for full auto and I?ve got to tell you, I see the hunting value of that weapon diminished a bit.

But that itself is not even the real problem?

If you look at armed crime in the US (sorry, but I don’t live in the UK and don’t think their situation excuses anything over here), it’s a fact that most crimes begin with firearms legally obtained to begin with.

Typically the criminal either takes it from a family member of steals it from one of his victims (the very ones arming themselves to stop him). It happened in my household one summer day in 198*. Seven guns taken in one fell swoop. I?m fairly certain the new owner was not as responsible as my father had been.

Anecdotal, I know, but don’t most news stories that you hear of include “legally” obtained weapons. These crimes for the most part are not committed with exotic arms, but run of the mill, next door neighbor stuff. Obviously there is no hard and fast rule or simple solution, but I can?t imagine that injecting more firepower into an already flooded environment sounds right to anybody? but apparently it does.

Still a gun owner, and still worried.

Ed Mercado
[url=http://www.mercconsulting.com:482c0]http://www.mercconsulting.com[/url:482c0]
Web Design for the Treasure Coast.

19

In my state here in Fla. we have seen a dramatic DECREASE in the amount of violent crime in the past years that seems to be related to the increase of CCW permits. In fact a law recently went into effect that is referred to as an improved castle doctrine. Before you did not have to retreat when in your house to avoid an intruder as you did in some states. Now you do not need to retreat while in your car or if you are just minding your own business while walking down the street. The most important part of this new improved law is that it also renders you harmless from civil prosecution. Gone now are the days when you defended yourself in your own home only to have the perpetrator’s next of kin take everything you had through the court system.
Before this law was voted on I heard a debate on the radio between an NRA lobbyist and a lobbyist from Handgun Control Inc. The lobbyist from Handgun Control Inc. actually admitted that he had his own CCW permit and carried for self protection every day.
As an aside if you are planing to visit Fla. we also offer non-resident CCW permits as well. So if you file for a permit ahead of time you may “carry” while here on vacation and be perfectly legal.

 Rusty <><

“PC” is for Plant City not Politically Correct. if you wanna catch something ya gotta get a hook in the water

20

Just take a look at the states with the highest crime rates. They also have the strictest gun laws. Warren is right when he says the punishment needs to fit the crime.

Rocky