I don’t know why…I do the same things each time.
But I’d guess 1 out of every 4 catskill-type flies I tie won’t cock properly when dropped in a bowl of water. Will lean to one side or the other.
I know trout will likely take them as cripples, but it bugs the hell out of me.
Doesn’t really matter the wing-type (hackle tip, wood duck, duck quill slip) and I splay the tail as wide as possible (hence, I recognize it’s not a true catskill - not to mention I don’t tye size 12s very often).
Thoughts?
Hi Steven,
First, I’d say that that’s a very good, if not excellent, percentage and not to worry. Second, and these are only a few guesses: Everything applied to the hook needs to be symetrical. Maybe the thread is being applied tighter on one side then another? The number of hackle barbs or wing fibers just off by a few from one side to the other? One wing split just slightly off center? Maybe just 1 or a couple of the tailing fibers is longer or angled out more on one side than the other? If you use head cement, and I suggest not to, maybe it’s not being applied uniformly?
Anyway, those are just some guesses.
Allan
I always check the wing slips and tails - but this last couple I couldn’t tell anything. No head cement on the head. I do use some at the base of the tails to ensure that they stay splayed (AK Best tip).
If I have to count hackle barbules, I’m going to quit tying 
Steven,
Like I wrote, 3 out of 4 cocking correctly is an excellent ratio. Ask some of the ‘renown’ tyers if they get a higher percentage. On second thought, of course they’d say ‘Yes’! So maybe the next time you happen to be in the presence of such a tyer, drop 10 dry flies and see how they ‘sit-up’ or ‘cock’. Or, drop 1 and see how many times it cocks upright. I think youi’ll find your ratio well more than average.
Allan
that’s very nice of you to say. I’ll take some comfort in this I guess.
I wouldn’t worry either. How much of a useful test is this? I mean there are a whole lot more factors involved in how a fly will be presented when fishing than just how it falls.
You have already strayed away from the exact dressing of these flies by spreading the tail. As you’ve done this to improve functionality then I presume that effectiveness as a fishing fly is your major consideration. Maybe trim a V under the hackle, thats only one step further than you’ve gone already.
Cheers,
A.
I could always do the V thing, but that takes me too far from the “Catskill look.”
There are things we naturally appreciate for the beauty because they have the right lines: English shotguns, Italian sports cars, Marilyn Monroe, Catskills.
Steven,
This reminds me of a thread a couple months ago…
What pattern are you tying and what proportions are you using for wings, hackle, tail?
Over this past weekend, I was tying various olives using wood duck and mallard slips for wings, some with stripped peacock for the body, some with dubbing. Just practicing really.
I was tying 16s on a TMC 100 chassis. Wings and tails equal to hook shank plus eye. Wing tied in somewhere around the 70% mark on the shank. Collar hackle a size 14 on the Dette scale (looks pretty much like 2x the gape). 3 turns behind the wings, 3 turns in front…and a little bit of bare hook shank behind the eye (I think it looks classy).
I once suggested the Dette scale and was told it was not what the Catskill tiers actually used.
I learned to tie “traditional” dry flies with this being the “test”: a perfect float line - meaning that the tip of the tail, the bottom of the hook, and the hackle tips formed a straight line - the “float line”. That worked for me.
But, like I said, we were all schooled a few months about this and told that the Dette scale is not a scale that corresponded to what “Catskill Tiers” used.
I must have missed that. It would be kind of funny if the Dette’s didn’t use their own scale. Admittedly, though, it wasn’t designed for the TMC 100.
Don’t know if I get that perfect float line or not. I’ll take a look when I get home.
We were told that the Dette gauge wasn’t adhered to closely amongst “Catskill Tiers”…and there were deviations even amongst the Dette’s on measurements. The whole thing seems odd to me. There is definitely one set of measurements which will produce a good floating fly given the classic look of a traditional dry fly. If the hook size is the same, a set length of tail; length and location of wing; length and location of hackle will produce a good floating fly. Otherwise, the flies tied and sold by the “Catskill Tiers” would not uniformly offer the buyer a good floating fly. There had to be consistency in the proportions of the flies being tied by these commercial tiers.
At least that’s the way it seems to me.
I will mention, however, an exception. If the tier knows that he has hackle too long for a particular fly (for example), he/she could adjust other proportions to compensate. However, it would not produce classic looking flies and they would all look somewhat different.
For example, I have a plate of flies tied by Walton Powell. The tails on his flies are cocked downward. The hackle is oversized for the fly, so I assume he was “compensating” for the oversized hackle he used.
Well, it’s true standards have changed over time. More common now is probably 1 1/2x the gape and I think Dave Brandt calls for 1 3/4x the gape.
It’s also apparent, from looking at the flies in Valla’s book, that proportions were honored more in thought than in actual practice. I can’t remember if it was Steenrod or Christian who didn’t really worry about wing size while Art Flick had a tendency to have short wings that didn’t really go above the hackle collar.
Surely a scale is a scale. It doesn’t matter what the units are so long as you end up with the correct proportions. If, for example, we need something to be 1/8" long and I measure it as 3mm it doesn’t matter at all what units the original size was stated in?
Cheers,
A.
Don’t be bringing that metric cr@p here. This is America dammit.
AlanB,
That’s right unless you are selling flies commercially or matching the hatch and the insect is a size 16. The hook size limits the alternatives if you wish to maintain a good float line. To alter the proportions much would mean you deviate from the intended size of the insect imitation.
Byron,
You do realize that flies don’t float just resting on the tip of the collar hackle and the tips of tails with the hook just resting on the surface, right?
Allow me to point out something. Take a look at the original question. It did not ask about the floatability of a fly. It did not ask about the proportions. It asked about the ‘cocking’ which, I will point out, describes how straight the fly lands, i.e. with the top of the shank horizontal to the water and the wings equiangular(is there such a word?) to the waters surface. It means the fly does not land on its head or does not land off to a side. The ‘cocking’ of a fly has nothing to do with the angle of float from the tip of the tail to the hackle tips.
Just sayin.
Allan
I’ve always thought that proportions would have an effect on cocking. I’d think that wings that were too tall relative to the collar hackle could lead to problems, for example.
