Proportions do have a role in how a fly cocks but not entirely. Example: If the wings or hackle are to long the fly will probably land on its head. Same is true if hackle is too far forward. However, let’s say you have the correct proportions but the wings lean to the left. The fly will probably not ‘cocl’ upright. A dry fly will ‘cock’ upright, meaning correctly, even if the tail is too long and the wings/hackle are short. However, you may not like the line of ‘float’. Probably this fly will sit very low in the water. I hope I’ve explained this clearly.
Here is a quote from Jorgensen who lived near the Dettes’ and said of their tying: “I wish all tyers would pay more attention to their attention to detail (meaning the Dettes’). They still measure each hackle and other materials before lashing them to the shank. It doesn’t matter whose flies you check, whether from Walt, Winnie or Mary. Each of them of a given pattern is as perfect as the other.”
Here in none other than Leonard’s book “Flies”, he gives these dry fly dimensions: Wing = shank length; Hackle = per hackle gauge (slight variations depending upon whether the fly is “regular”, variant, or spider; tail = total hook length less the eye. Concerning adjusting proportions, he mentions, for example, the use of wings which are too long will cause the tippet to twist during casting, etc.
He also notes the following: addressing the choice of hackle for a dry fly: “To support the weight of the dry fly properly, these fibers should bend without penetrating the water surface. Once the water film has been pierced, the fly will lose its buoyancy…a minimum but sufficient amount of hackle points bending on the water surface will cause the surface tension to support a fly in the best possible manner.”
Perhaps you’d like to point out which post under this thread mentioned that concept? And YES! It is pure myth. In his book, Harry Darbee describes how Roy Steenrod described “the distinctive features of the Catskill style”(pg 42). “Its characteristics: … This puts the sustaining hackle so close to the point of balance that the fly rides over broken, turbulent water like a Coast Guard lifeboat, so nearly balanced that often the tail of hackle whisk (originally, a little curlicue of several woodduck barbules) doesn’t touch the water at all.” Besides, you were talking about how the fly ‘cocks’, not how it floats and that was what I tried to describe.
Byron,
The Dette gauge allowed for a variance within the size of hackle. For example: The upper scale of hackle for a size 14 hook is on the lower scale of hackle for a size 12 hook. I think they were called ‘in-betweeners’. Also, I don’t recall whether the Dette gauge was designed for the Mustad or Allcock brand of hooks. Maybe they both had the same dimensions. Regardless, todays quality hooks have different dimensions and therefore, any one gauge just gives an approximation. Secondarily, while the Dette flies were beautiful in their own right, the proportions they used were not universally accepted as dogma.
That, I believe, is why leonard’s book has a hook gauge so that you can “size” your hook against his gauge. He also shows scale dimensions of various designs of dry fly hooks. with a length measurement for each in order to adjust for 1XL, 2XL, etc.
nothing in fly fishing/tying is “universally accepted as dogma”. However, I think most would say that the Dettes’ represent the Catskill fly tying methods. For example, in Leiser’s book about them, he quotes Walt as saying: “Our fly tying today, with a few minor changes, is still the style and technique evolved by Rube Cross”.
As partners, of sorts, in a fledgling business of tying flies and wrapping rods, they - Walt and Harry Darbee - studied flies tied by Rube and others. Walt took them apart turn by turn as Winnie and Harry Darbee took notes.
It was designed for the Allcock model perfect dry fly hook. Mustads were longer, hence the need to go up “1” size on the Dette gauge. For a size 16 Mustad, for example, one uses a size 14 (according to the Dette gauge) hackle.
A catskill pattern will rock as it drifts to either side. The wing position insures that it will not lean further than the wing angle. If a fly lists to one side and stays there, there is a demension problem and most often means the wing is too long. But just dropping it into a cup of water really shows you nothing. You do not have the tippet tension applied to the eye of the hook. That weight is more than the applied tension of the bend of the hook. If the fly does not fall on it’s face, and the hackle/tail are proportioned correctly, it will fish as intended. Last I recall, never caught a fish out of a cup?
Too long proportionally for the hook size. If it’s too far forward or WAY too long, it will fall on it’s face. But a little too long proportionally and it will tend to list to one side or the other. “Too heavy” when bundling materials for wings can have the same affect.
NJTroutbum is the first one (he beat me to it) to understand that the way a dry fly “cocks” and floats is heavily influenced by the tippet … ?? Take this whole Catskill style back to the Golden Age and consider they used gut tippets normally much thicker and stiffer than what we use today, and the effect was undoubtedly even greater.
Couple of tips: First don’t splay the tail, Second, after completing the tie, clip a tiny bit off the bottom of the hackle, creating a small flat area.
It varies. Each material you use has a different weight. So at times a hook-eye too long is enough to cause it to list it one side. Other materials, a hook-eye long will cause it to fall on it’s face. It can change pattern-to-pattern. Over time for a given pattern you nail it. The key after that is consistency.
Also remember with the tippet tension, the tippet size AND knot choice can change a flies stance on the water as well.
