In another post Mr. Proctor, who I think as a professional rod builder, can qualify as an EXPERT made the statement above. My question is “Are the lighter high dollar rods less durable?” Do the lower end of the spectrum rods have more resin, less graphite fibers, weigh a little more, not quite as high performance but more durable?
Less durable than a broomstick? You bet. But then who wants to cast a broomstick? I know JC could do it but I suspect he would not want to do so all day, nor would he enjoy the fight of the fish.
I used to be the education coordinator for one of our local fly clubs. As such I was involved with many forms of classes, including casting classes. Students would show up with the fly rods they owned and stand there waiting for instruction.
Some of those rods were so bad that you literally could not cast more than 30 feet with them, just plain horrible. That is when I decided our club needed to furnish rods for the classes so everyone could get an idea of how a fly rod should cast.
The top end rods have helped bring our graphite fly rods out of the dark ages and into the light so to speak. Yes, the rods are lighter but they are better. They cast longer, have more sensitivity and can take a lot of abuse.
Because of the increases in technology of the high end rods, the companies that offer a good to medium grade rod have greatly increased the quality of their rods, they are lighter and stronger and more sensitive.
Everyone is a winner.
Larry —sagefisher—
I won’t go too deep into this subject right now because I don’t have a lot of time right now, but I will say this. Don’t be fooled into thinking that the “high dollar rod companies” are doing such great advancements in technology. Almost every blank out there is made the exact same way and have the same sort of engineering behind them right across the board. The majority of the time when you pay $600-$800 for a rod you are not paying for some great rod development program like most customer like to make themselves believe they are doing. What your actually doing is you are paying for that company to buy full double page ad’s in the most popular fly fishing magazines on the newstand, full 45 second commercials on fishing TV shows, and paying to send their sales rep’s to every fly fishing show in the country.
The only way to make a rod BLANK lighter (we’re talking blank here not componets) is the decrease the wall thickness of the blank. This can be done in one of two ways. Less graphite or less resin. The downside is that you will have a rod that will break/fracture easier than other rods. This is a problem Gatti had a few years back with their blanks. They were the lightest blanks on the market at the time because they decreases their wall thickness, but they also started having the most warranty claims as well.
Don’t take the above as me saying some of the higher priced blanks aren’t good because they are nice blanks. And there are a few advancements which have come along… But keep in mind that “most” the time the same design/ engineering/lay up process and end price to make are all the same, you just end up being charged more for the “big names” because of their advertising programs in most cases.
Steve
Almost all of the flyshops are marketing very reasonably priced rods that are works of art compared to a similarly priced rod of 5 years ago. But you still have to do “due diligence” to make sure you don’t get the exception.
No…they’re just more expensive. Don’t ask me why!
A $100.00 Cabela’s rod would serve me just fine!
Haven’t fished graphite in many years but I still have a couple out in the garage.
As I recall, a 7 1/2’ 4 wt. from Cabela’s. Paid $85.00 and it is pretty sweet for graphite.
The other is a very low end Orvis Green Mountain 8’ for a 7 weight. Bought it for largemouth and it served me well!
Neither ever wore me out fishing them. There might be 3/4 oz difference in them and todays ultra, ultra, ultra, light carbon rods. And, these newer high end rods might let me make a more accurate 90’ cast, but so what?
Another example of the pussification of America.
Also as a professional builder, I am going to have to agree with Steve on his statements. I personally have had some people at some of the shows that I have attended cast some of the less expensive rods that I have built and were amazed at the performance, especially compared to a rod selling for 4 to 5 times the cost of the high end rods.
I agree with Steve 100%.
A very large part of that higher cost is born in the marketing and warranty and the money you pay for them to market and warranty the rod has absolutely no bearing on durability or quality. None.
A thinner blank to lighten things up a half an ounce will break easier. I contend that the half ounce isn’t enough to affect a day’s fishing one way or the other for the vast majority of fly anglers.
I find that the more expensive blanks have better quality in finish, are typically straighter, and more consistant in the action. It probably has to do with design and quality control. That being said, the lesser priced blanks are way ahead of the ones made just a couple of years ago.
I spoke with someone in the industry and was told that Sage, Winston and others have many blanks built overseas. If that is the case than we can all expect to see knockoffs of the “new” blanks soon. Thus the lesser priced blanks will take another step up.
I was also told that most all of the madrels for making the blanks is made overseas now.
You will also find the the lighter wt blanks are also a lot more costly, due in part to the manufacturer having to build in extra cost for the offered warranty, as it is a thinner blank thus reducing the weight, and making them more fragile and susceptable to damage and breakage.
Winston still makes their higher end rods in Twin Bridges. Their lower end rods are made overseas. However, there is nothing wrong with rods made overseas, those companies make rods to the exact specifications given to them by the buyer. If the buyer wants a cheap rod they will make a cheap rod. If he wants a good rod they will make a good rod.
Larry —sagefisher—
You have some very interesting statements here. Pretty much all of it is true…You need to think how a rod blank is made.
You take a mandrel. This is a steel tube with a certain taper or tapers within the length of that mandrel. You take a peice of carbon/graphite and lay it out. You cut this into something that reminds you of a slice of pie. You cut a peice of scrim,usually made of fiberglass or a lower grade of carbon to match the higher carbon slice and you add resins to adhere the two together. When holding a piece of carbon in your hands, it’ll just tear without this scrim glued onto it. The carbon/graphite is rated by the manufacturer as to how close the material is packed,giving you a higher modulus. The higher modulus, the more it costs for the roll. Remember this roll is kept in a freezer,as the heat will have this pull apart and tear in your hands.
After this, you wrap the material around the mandrel,usually around 3 times around,some companies will do 2 1/2 times,sometimes the tip gets 2 wraps and the butt section will get 3-or 4 times around–company secrets here,as is the make of the scrim and glue to hold it together.
Now it goes into an oven—wait! you wrap the blank in celophane to hold the glue,resins and everything together. Pretty neat stuff. The celophane comes out in 2-3 inch strips and the blank rolls around and wraps up the blank like a candy cane…Now it goes into the oven. Another secret is how long and what the temps are…
Then you pull this out and take the mandrel out from within. You pull and sand off the bumps and celophane as it doesn’t burn in the oven. Another neat machine. The blank spins as the sanding dusk comes out and sands off the ridges from one end to the other. You will check this by hand later.
There you have it— a blank made by anyone with the tools and technology.
You don’t have to look with in the USA to get good blanks. If the technology is there as is the dedicated worker, you will get a high performance rod blank. Poor performance and a lack of dedication in the worker, you get trash.
Remember the days when you were told to buy a car that was made on a wednesday??? Monday was hangover day and Friday was --“lets get outa here” day.
I do find it hard to believe that all that money you spend goes into the rod blank–not so. Most of this expenditure is our own fault with expecting full lifetime warranties. If the companies didn’t build that into the price of our rods, we would be paying a lot less for the rods we buy. You would be very surprized to find out how much money goes into building a T&T,Winston, or Sage rod blank.
There is more but I think you get the idea.
Randy
I wouldn’t be the least bit suprised at what it cost them to build a blank.
and market it…
With all of the comments regarding graphite rods, the current issue of “American Angler” magazine is suggesting we may be going back to fiberglass. If this is true, it won’t be long before the “new” fiberglass will cost as much as the curent graphites.
You’re right there!!!
I pay over $100 for a quality hand rolled glass blank now. Still the old adage–supply and demand.
Randy
I think we got off the subject of cost vs. durability - we think we have found that thinner blanks are less durable, but not all high end rods are thinner and not all low-end rods are thicker. So I would say the answer to the question is no.
Have you priced one of the current Scott glass rods? They already cost more than I would pay for graphite.
I had not priced a Scott F rod Bob, but out of curiosity I visited their site and worked up a custom F rod.
Check this out…
Rod F2-825/4 $595.00
Custom fee $150.00
Titanium skeleton reel seat $140.00
N/S winding check $10.00
N/S green agate stripping guide $50.00
Snake brand chrome guides $20.00
Grip, cork spacer, wraps/trim n/c
Total…$965.00!!!
[b]Anyone want to build me a custom fiberglass rod for that much dinero??
[/b]
Quite the sticker shock, isn’t it? I like glass, but enough is too much.
My silaflex cost me $19 back in the 70’s, and I still fish it on occasion.
Yep, it is.
I’m in the market for a custom glass rod in the, hopefully, not too distant future, but maybe half that cost!!