First, don’t get me wrong. I make my own spinner baits and in-line spinners. No value judgement of good or bad. But, when does a fly become a lure? Large streamers and flies made with jig heads can be used as lures just as easily as a fly. Is the deciding factor the line and what it is attached to on the back end?
Pandora’s Box - By asking the question of “When does a fly become a lure?”, you may have just opened it. Technically, a fly is alwas a lure. Wikipedia says “A fishing lure is an object attached to the end of a fishing line which is designed to resemble and move like the prey of a fish.” Thus, every fly is a lure.
That said, I know why you asked that question. I have seen many ‘flies’ that I would call a lure, but fot the fact that they were hand made and tied on a hook.
Many states have created laws pertaining to ‘fly fishing only’ situations, and even their laws are a bit vague.
For me, it is a simple answer. If I use a fly rod and a fly line to cast the ‘fly’, then the fly is a fly. Main reason, the line is taking the fly with it. If I use a spinning rod with a thin mono type line, then it is a lure, main reason, the lure is taking the line with it. There are streamers and such that can be used in either manner of casting, so it all depends upon what rod/reel/line I am using.
Larry —sagefisher—
I read RayBergman’s book “Trout” and he calls flies lures lot of times. To me, the line between fly and lure is pretty vague and fuzzy. Although flies are generally made principally of hair, feathers and their synthetic counterparts there are also flies made mainly of epoxy, foam or some other form of plastic. And there there are lures, bucktail and marabou jigs pop to mind, that are mainly made of hair or feathers. So what does it matter, in my opinion, not that much. If you throw it with a fly rod most of the time I’ll call it a fly. If you throw it with spinning tackle most of time it’s a lure.
I think Larry (sagefisher) has pretty much answered this question the best that it can be answered without creating sides.
I’m not experienced with salt water or steelhead/salmon but ,in addition to what sagefisher said, a further designation for me is the number of hooks on it. A fly ,for me, never has more than one hook .
Best
Steve
I’m not wanting to start a battle. I wondered about others opinions. Sqalles2 raises a good point. However, I think there are some flies with stingers in them. This may be an example of what you are throwing it with determines if it is a fly. Other (polite) thoughts?
Okay, how’s this: All flies are lures but not all lures are flies.
Over the years, I’ve participated in many (a lot) of discussions/threads on this very subject and given it some thought. Aside from what is stated in individual state and locale fishing regulations, here’s my opinion and it’s just that. My individual opinion and you may agree, disagree or feel it needs some tweeking. ‘A fly imitates a water born or water found insect. It is tyed on a single pointed hook. It may have some minor added weight wrapped under the body but the attachment of a weighted or even an unweighted bead head makes it a ‘lure’. A lure can be reasonably, effectively cast and often even fished with typical spinning equipment but a fly cannot. A true fly can only be cast because it is carried by the fly line. The fly itself offers no aid to the cast.’ Just some of my thoughts and many of those contained in posts above are good too.
Allan
P.S. Again, barring any specific state DEC regs, maybe the best way to determine ‘fly’ or ‘lure’ would be to paraphrase what Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said about ‘obsenity’ (again paraphrasing) 'I may not know how to define it but I’ll know it when I see it’.
That excludes a lot of new and classic patterns for leeches, crawfish, minnows, and a large group of salt water patterns I cannot name. There are classic salmon patterns tied on double hooks and new patterns and old with wire for strictly weight and wire as part of the fly. Isn’t the real question when is a lure a fly? If memory serves me well, I believe the first fish I ever caught on a outfit with a rod and reel was on a popping bug behind a bobber on my first spincast outfit. Was the popper still a fly? Or does the lure have to attached to a flyline on a flyrod? Is a plastic worm or shad thrown with a flyrod a fly?
Jesse,
With only 1 exception, the ‘classic salmon patterns’, none of the others are insects and are, as I wrote in my opinion, ‘lures’ not ‘flies’. Classic salmon patterns were originally, and are generally still refered to as ‘lures’ by traditional salmon fly fishers. As far as using a spinning outfit to cast a ‘fly’. Let’s say you had used an Adams dry below the bobber instead of a popper. You would have caught that fish on a fly but you were certainly not fly fishing. Oh - “Is a plastic worm or shad thrown with a flyrod a fly?” NO!
Maybe you agree or disagree. It’s entirely up to you.
I have a hard time drawing the line at insect. There are too many legitimate flies that imitate non-insects. I find it hard, for example, to disqualify an egg pattern as a fly.
Not being widely read in the history of the sport, I suspect Allan is correct in that flies were first called such because they represented insects. But the meaning of words change with common usage and 99% of flyfishermen and women would call a San Juan worm, a Y2K or a Royal Wulff a fly even though they do not represent an insect.
Personally I enjoy making “flies” that look like little frogs and cause bass launch through the surface to attack them Not a fly, I don’t really care, it’s great fun.
This is an issue I feel very strongly about… especially this time of year.
The egg drop has started and frankly, a bead fisherman will beat a fly fisherman senseless! I gave up counting fish decades ago and the need to catch a big batch of fish every day is long gone. Not counting the fact I have put more fish on the beach than most could begin to imagine… But I digress…
I do not consider beads fished on a fly rod “fly fishing” any more than I would rubber worms and casting bubbles on a spinning rod. The State agrees with me and says beads are not usable in “Fly Fishing Only” waters… but they are going so far as to say beads used to tie a fly MUST be directly attached to the shank of the hook. So beads attached by mono loops and such are not legal, either.
Too many historic flies have too many hook points to limit flies to a single point, IMO.
And I certainly would not subscribe to the notion only insects count for imitation… Seems the fellows across the pond have this huge batch of flies called “Spiders” and I missed that chapter in my entomology text. And I absolutely love tying Carrie Stevens’ streamer patterns (even though I do not fish them) and cannot remember a single insect that looked like one of her patterns!
Following the egg drop we will swap to flesh patterns. At the very least I consider them flies… but not insects!
look up the jawbreaker fly. i have fished this for bass over the summer with good success and think it would also make a fine trout fly tied in a smaller size. however, i think it pushes that line of what a fly should be just because of the rubber tail. i am fine with the rubber legs, but that tail makes me feel a little guilty fishing it on my fly rod. sure is effective though.
One of the definitions of Mr. Webster for lure is “artificial bait used for catching fish”. Most certainly that would describe a hand tied fly attempting to front for some bug/insect. No doubt “lure” has a wide definition for the many different types of fishing but the word artificial nails it down.
I feel a little guilty about eating a big bowl of blackberry cobbler with ice cream, but if one is put in front of me, it will probably be eaten. If that catches fish I would fling it. I would like to find a size better fitted to the 3 - 5 wt. rod. I have tried to develop a template for cutting similar tails from balloons with little success.
Chamois works really well for tails and some body wrappings. Larry —sagefisher—
I personally wouldn’t call an egg pattern a fly – but I’m just talking terminology here, not legal definitions. The British call streamers and bucktails “lures” – but only to make clear they’re not talking about insect imitations.
I’m in agreement with Allen – all flies are lures, but not all lures are flies. Except in the strict legal sense of defining what’s acceptable for fly-fishing only streams, I hesitant about calling anything not representing an insect a “fly”. (Which insect a size 6 Parmachene Belle wet fly represents, though, I’m not sure.)
a fly is always a lure and always has been.
For purposes of this discussion, a ‘fly’ becomes a ‘lure’ at whatever point YOU believe it does. Fly fishing is an individual sport. State rules exist in many states, but are often vague and confusing on this subject. We all draw our own conclusions, and set our own limits within the law. It’s not up to another fly fisherman to tell me which of my flies he considers lures, nor is it up to me to tell anyone ‘what’ they have on the end of their line. It’s entirely up to you. (for those that may be confused, there are no ‘ethics’ involved here).
Here in New Zealand the Matuka’s, Bi-hackles, pukeku, and killer style “flies” are generally referred to as lures in the tying books. Feather and hair wing streamers would be as well.
However, this discussion always seems to end up being about a definition, and most of the disagreements seem to focus around how different areas use the term “fly” and “lure”. For example, I agree with Alan, that all flies are lures, though not all lures are flies. Crankbaits, rubber worms, spoons, etc, are lures and certainly not flies.
Now, the real point, is what is it that people mean when they say “fly”? There are some areas where the term fly is used as a broad category term to apply to the kind of thing you are allowed to use on fly only water, regardless of what it is supposed to represent. So “fly” is used as a high level all inclusive type term.
Others use the term “fly” to designate a particular subset of patterns that can be used in fly fishing only waters, and specifically these are used in reference to a winged insect. Some will not call a nymph pattern a fly because, to them, it’s a nymph. Streamers (feather and hairwings) represent bait fish, and they are called things like "streamers, bucktails, squirrel tails, etc depending upon local. Some use streamers for all of those, others break them down into the terms listed, some will lump them all into a category of “lure”, which includes crayfish patterns, swimming nymphs (the NZ killer patterns of often thought to imitate various dragon/damsel fly nymphs, etc) and such.
Having grow up in Nova Scotia, to me the term fly is used for all “fly fishing legal lures”. If I want to differentiate, I get into terms like “dry fly, wet fly, nymph, spider or soft hackle, streamer, etc”.
People seem to take it personally if other areas/people use the term “fly” differently and their favorite pattern no longer is granted the title of “fly” (or the other way round) - but that is language. What the question is really asking, though, is “Do you use the term fly to refer to this type of pattern?”.
Remember, the only time it matters is if the ranger is checking what you’ve got tied on the end of your line.
- Jeff