What's really the case with fly rod warranties?

Gear & Reviews
1

Every day I see many people selling their used fly rods (and other fly fishing gear) together with blank warranty cards that were not filled out and sent to the rod manufacturer at the time of purchase. And, there are an equal number of buyers that are willing to pay a premium price for those rods over what they would pay for the rod with no warranty card.

A number of the rod manufacturers stipulate that their warranty applies to the original purchaser only, and for purchases made from an authorized manufacturer. Some may also stipulate that the purchase information must be sent in within a certain time frame after the initial purchase. (Sage’s warranty card, for example, says 10 days after purchase.)

In my experience, sometimes I talk about the warranty with the dealer before buying a rod, and other times not. I am sometimes lax in sending in these warranty cards though, and I just remembered that I still have a blank card for a Sage Z-Axis that I bought last summer (from an authorized dealer) that I have not yet sent in. I may also have other blank warranty cards going back farther than that one too.

Orvis’ rod warranty goes a step farther, and states that "The Orvis 25-Year Guarantee is valid only for the original owner of a rod. Rods sold on E-Bay or similar online auctions carry the guarantee as long as they are new rods sold by authorized Orvis dealers. Used rods sold on E-Bay or any other website do not carry this guarantee."

However, I just looked, and there may be a couple hundred Orvis fly rods with blank warranty cards being auctioned on Ebay right now by private sellers other than authorized Orvis dealers.

I fully appreciate the significant amount of warranty expense incurred by rod manufacturers, and that we pay for this (significant) warranty cost in the (high) price of every fly rod purchased.

On the other hand, I’m not so sure how serious rod manufacturers are in controlling their warranty policies. For example, I’ve never been turned down by Sage on a rod repair, although I may or may not have sent in the warranty card. (Believe me when I say I’ve had more than my share of repairs, and Sage always repairs or replaces them in a first class manner.)

If rod manufacturers are really as serious about controlling their warranty costs as they appear to be in controlling selling prices, why don’t they require the dealer submit this warranty information to them when they sell the rod, rather than leaving it up to the buyer? (Admittedly, I’m a lot more interested in catching fish than filling out paperwork!) I can only remember once when a dealer offered to do this for me, which was probably a good thing all around for him to do.

I think it would be a hard thing for a manufacturer to penalize a retail customer and refuse to service a legitimate warranty claim just because they don’t have a properly completed warranty card on file; however, they could certainly do a better job, in my opinion, in controlling rod warranties if they required their dealers to submit warranty cards/original purchaser information to them directly.

(I bet you’d never be able to buy a new car and submit the warranty information yourself, at your leisure.)

What’s your opinion?

2

I never really thought about it but I know this… Orvis will honor the warranty whether you are or are not the original owner or whether you sent the card in. Kudos for them, I guess.

I have bought several rods from my local shop (Sage/Winston dealer) and he takes the liberty of filling the cards out and sending them in. I think its a cool thing to do, not a lot of extra effort on his part yet going that extra little bit shows that he cares about his customer’s investment. That shop knows how to build lifetime relationships. They are very good at what they do!

3

Based on my experience with Sage and Orvis, the only store-bought rods I have (I’ve built the rest), the warranty card is a joke. I’ve returned broken rods and never been asked if I ever filled out the card; as long as I was willing to pay the shipping cost, they took care of the rest. I have a feeling I could have been the 5th owner of a rod and it wouldn’t have made a difference.

Regards,
Scott

4

My experiences have been similar to everyone else’s.

I’ve had rods repaired or replaced for FREE (not even shipping and handling) from a manufacturer that I told on the phone I’d bought the rod second hand and that it had seen five years of hard use BEFORE I bought it, and I’d had it for three years. They sent me new rod, gratis. Wasn’t a fly rod, though.

I think we have two separate things happening here. One is a dedication to customer service. Rod companies, if they aren’t short sighted, recognize the benefit of customer loyalty and the stories that will bounce around sites like this one when they do something that basically costs them little or nothing. Many outdoor related companies tend to do this. See White Wolf’s post about his vise, and numerous others posted here.

Another is the actual ‘cost’ to the manufacturer of a fly rod to do something like this. Last I heard, Sage charged something like $30 for a return/replace plus shipping. That’s probably close to their out of pocket ‘cost’ (don’t confuse cost with value here) for their high end rods. So it basically costs them nothing to offer this ‘service’. Other makers have similar policies. Back when I was bass fishing, many rod makers had ‘no fault/no question’ warranties, but had a small fee, usually in the fifteen to twenty dollar range, for ‘handling’ the return/replace. I was told by several of these makers that this was the actual ‘cost’ of the materials involved.

So, they get great press, have happy customers, and it doesn’t cost too much more than the labor/marketing costs which they would have paid anyway.

As far as ‘enforcing’ warranty rules, that’s a no win for them in just about every case. Getting the ‘dealers’ to fill out the warranty cards would be nice, but last time I checked, rods aren’t serialized and if the customer claims to be the original owner, how do you argue with them and still keep that valuable customer friendly reputation. It’s just not worth it.

With the rising cost of rods, the warranties will probably get moe open, not more restrictive. Good for all of us in the long run because they are not going to lower rod costs anyway.

Good Luck!

Buddy

5

Just look at the math and the Marketing hype. Most all rod manufacturers that offer warranties up the price of the rods by around $10 to cover what it’s going to cost them to repair or replace the few that are ever going to be returned.

Let’s say they sell 1000 rods and up the price on each by $10 over what they might normally sell them for. That brings in $10,000 ,which more than pays for the few they are ever going to get sent in for replacement.

Thus they have more than covered the cost of their warranty and the Marketing hype they get for their “unconditional warranty” makes them look great and that brings in more sales.

I used to work for a manufacturer that sold products to industrial customers. We routinely made up for customers misusing our products by providing refunds, or replacements because we knew it was good business and would more than pay for itself in future orders.

Dave

I didn’t fully read Buddy’s post before I wrote mine but guess I am essentially saying what he said.

6

I agree wholeheartedly about the customer service side of the issue, and I personally tend to shy away from future purchases from any manufacturer when I have a bad experience in that regard.

Although I don’t know what the actual total cost of a fly rod is to a manufacturer, I would guess that it is closer to 40% of the retail price (say $240.00 on a $600.00 retail fly rod, than the much smaller nominal amount, if any, that the manufacturer charges for a warranty service fee. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if someone told me that the warranty cost per rod was 10% of the manufacturer’s costs - perhaps $25.00 on each fly rod sold.

I’m not familiar with many premium fly rod manufacturers, but I do know that Sage’s fly rods are serially numbered; however, I don’t know how well these numbers are actually controlled.

Could be that the bottom line is that it’s far more important to all involved to have superior customer service over adhering to the precise warranty policy.

7

I had a customer bring me a Sage reel that had drag problems. I asked him about warranty and he said there wasn’t any as he had bought it second hand. I called Sage to buy the drag cartridge for him and they sent it to me free of charge. I am not an authorized Sage dealer and told them it was bought second hand. Pretty impressive customer service.

As for warranty cost… Customer service like the above example does not come cheap. The idiot proof warranties many of us have come to expect are a major portion of the cost of a new rod. That rod is being paid for roughy twice when you buy it new.

Compare specifications between Sage blanks and MHX blanks. The MHX blank at about 1/4 the price of a Sage blank is lighter in almost every case and is favorably comparable when one compares CCS measurements and other specs. Oh! The blank still carries a lifetime warranty. Why the difference in price? That no questions asked customer service and idiot proof warranty.

8

John,

The ‘wholesale’ cost of most products, what the dealer or store pays, typically runs 33% to 60% of ‘retail’. Fly rods, especially high end ones, are probably in the 50 to 60% range due to price controls put in place by the manufacturer. So that $600 rod ‘cost’ the store/dealer no more than $360, allowing the dealer to make $240 on each sale.

If it ‘costs’ the manufacturer 40% of the remainder, then he’s getting no more than $144 for each rod. Labor is always the biggest expense for any business selling hand made products. If labor only runs 50% (not likely that low) then the ‘cost’ of the materials has to be below $72. If they only spend 10% of the $360 they get paid for the rod in marketing and R & D (doubt it’s that low), then you can knock another $36 off the 'cost of the materials and we are down to $36.

Even if you decrease the labor to 25% (any company with labor costs in that range would be a fortune 500 star with folks lining up to copy their business model) you’d still be at only around $50 for the actual component ‘cost’.

And then you have to figure out the ‘profit’ part of all this…

The materials used in fly rod don’t cost much at all. The R & D, the labor, yeah, that costs, as does marketing and advertising. But the blank, the guides, reel seats, cork for handles, that stuff is really cheap, which is why they can stay in business selling the rods for only $600.

Buddy

9

John,

Many companies include language like this in their warranty literature: [i]This guarantee / warranty gives you specific, limited legal rights. You may have additional rights under applicable state law.

[/i]This may not mean much at first glance, but it’s a legal-esse reminder that the warranty restrictions that a company is using, may not hold water in the state where the consumer lives.
Your state attorney general office or dept. of consumer affairs is the best place to look to, for an explanation.

Best, Dave

10

Also figure that most manufacturers do NOT take time to find the spine on a rod or do a static test. Guide placement is determined not for each blank, but for that taper as an average. Skipping these steps saves a ton of time and labor costs. Add to this savings the fact that many of today’s fly rods are made in countries in the Pacific Rim where labor costs are much lower.

If Wright-McGill can produce quality equipment in the US for a lower price than most, why can’t the rest?

11

Are you surmising that they could be making as much as $135 PROFIT on each rod?

I could be totally wrong, of course, but I would be shocked if the rod companies were making a net income per rod higher than 10% of sales (after tax). That would be $36 profit on each $600 retail cost rod that they would sell to a dealer $360, for example.

What do you suppose the labor cost is per premium rod (such as Sage) to make a rod in the USA these days? (The complete cost for wages and benefits, FICA, workers comp, etc.). I suppose a lot depends on how many of the rod components are made in house, but I’d think it must take a couple hours of work, costing them at least $100.00 per rod, and maybe more.

12

A handy rule of thumb is that whatever an employee’s wages are is about half of the total cost to employ that person.

I am not sure if this is still a valid number, but various entrepreneurial classes I have taken over the years have said that I should be shooting for a 15% return on my money in my business. Retail companies that I have managed stores for have set 10% profit before taxes as a minimum to keep your job. 15% got you a decent bonus.

13

It depends upon the company. I broke the tip section of my TFO 3 wt. within the first couple of years I owned it. They replaced it for the $25 service charge no questions ask. Over 20 years ago, I sent a broken spinning rod with a lifetime warranty back to the manufacturer. They offered me a coupon off one of their new rods but refused to replace the rod. At the time they had quit making fiberglass rods and their graphite rods were quite expensive. When I protested I received a letter from the company’s president that state the warranty was for the “life of the rod.” I am not naming the company because they are a sponsor here. In the last 20+ years I nor any of my friends have bought a rod made by that company.

14

Obviously, it’s not a good thing for a manufacturer to refuse service on a legitimate warranty claim, as you’ve just illustrated.

It’s the same thing with me, but I don’t mind mentioning names where I’ve had problems in the past. That’s why I’ll never buy another T&T fly rod, or a Regal Vice, for example. (I also understand some people may have experienced service problems in the past on their Rolls Royce cars too, but I don’t have any first hand experience with them myself.:smile:)

15

John,

No, not 135 profit (number should have been 144, did the math in my head and…well Im gettin old).

If the manufacturer gets 360 wholesale, and if you are correct that the actual ‘cost’ of the rod was 40% of that, then that 40% is $144. That means that labor, advertising, marketing, and ‘profits’., would come out of what was left.

I’d be surprised if the actual overall prifit to the company was more than 10% of the rods retail selling price, but I’d also be surprised if the actual cost of the materials involved cost even 5% of that.

KB,

Don’t know anything about the shops you’ve dealt with, but I’ve been in retail all my life. Most small shops of any kind use a keystone (double the cost) at least to find their retail price. That means the amount to the shop would be 50% of the retail sales price of the item (not profit, they still have costs to take out of that). Many shops use an even higher ‘mark up’, many using a three or even 3.5 multiplier. For many small fly shops or tadkle sellers, a smaller margin is common though, primarily because price controls by rod and lure makers cuts into their profits(how legal that is is another question). All the ones I know were still getting 40% of retail, though, and I’d be surprised if any could remain in business at 30%.

If that’s the case, it’s pretty sad and we can see another reason small shops are disapearing.

Buddy

16

As a small shop myself, I strive to keep my margin up as do many others I talk to. I agree that the 50% mark is the preferred place to be. The 30% figure is the bare minimum I will accept. Many of my suppliers for lines and other accessories, which should be the high profit items, have those items priced such that I can barely get the 30%. Go to 'most any major retailer and if you were allowed to see per item profit margins, you would see that large ticket items like TVs and stereos are very low profit while all the goodies you need to hook them up are in the 80% range. This is pretty common as you are probably aware. In a fly shop, the rod would be the lower profit item and lines, reels, flies, nets, etc. should be in the higher profit margin category. The idea is to give the customer a good price on the high ticket item and they will buy the higher profit consumables from them. This earns more dollars for the shop than a 50% margin on the high ticket items would.

17

i don’t hold much stock in warrantees. i bought new thomas and thomas about 12 years ago, i sent warrantee in, well about 5 years ago it got broke so i sent it back to t&t, they told me they no longer make the rod but if i wanted a new one they would sell me one at 40% off, i paid over $500 for the one i had, they never even sent the old one back, needless to say i’ll never shop t&t again

18

A few years ago, I had an Orvis dealer order a rod for me. It was still in the shipping box when he handed it to me. There was a copy of the invoice inside the box. His cost was 50% of the retail price.