OK, thanks, I’m going to try the Rod Bond.
Have you tried the new Quik Bond? Also, will it act as a filler (shim) too, instead of using masking tape?
Masking tape is good on a rod worth $29.95! Its a short cut and when you add up shortcuts…you know what you end up with. Me personally…Id never try and sell a rod or purchase a rod I knew had masking tape reelseat shims.
I use the graphite spacers available from just about everyone. You have to ream them out like you do for the cork and you need to purchase them to fit the inner bore of the reel seat. With those, you know the seat is centered on the blank.
First, I should have noted that I’m speaking about building fly rods.
Secondly, how do you fill gaps between the reel seat and the rod blank? There seems there is always a bit of a gap between the two. Should they always be sized close enough so that the rod bond or epoxy will fill a small space between the two?
You always want the glue joint as thin as possible so that minimum shear can get at it.
Depending on the actual gap size I used various sizes of THREADS…from narrow / thin to some really fat stuff as large as large “mason’s” string. Wrap 2 to 3 areas that end up under the reelseat…SOAK with thin eposy and let it harder…then size my reelseat for a “slip fit”…load it up with U40 Rod Bond and sock it home…making sure the little cut out area for the reel foot…is located properly.
For metal reelseats such as ( I think it was??) PacBay…Id use the graphite arbors such as has been described…but in may cases such as with Strubles they were .360 I.D. and were just a slip fit naturally with the brands of blanks I preferred.
The purpose of a shim is just to center the reel seat on the blank. Once the epoxy used to glue on the reel seat sets up, the shims serves no further purpose. Every rod building book I’ve read suggests masking tape shims over arbors.
What do you feel graphite arbors add to a rod other than a couple bucks to the parts total? Besides, depending on the gap difference between the blank and the seat, arbors are not always an option anyway (a gap less than 2 or 3mm etc.).
I’m going to back up a bit from my first post. The arbor will not be anymore centered than tape but would be more centered than trying to use epoxy only to fill things in. I was thinking that the arbor would also add to solidity of the whole thing but that is not necessarily so. A lot depends on how much space there is between the blank and seat.
I, too have seen tape recommended a lot. I have used it on one rod, the bamboo rod was a slip fit, and arbors on two others. The arbors were ordered to fit and only needed a little reaming to fit nicely. The arbors just seemed like a “cleaner” solution to me. That does not necessarily mean they are a better solution, though.
Of course any arbor has that centering task to do…but as I said on SOME reelseats its a giant “gap filler”. On some all metal seats the ID of the seat was something like .70 or ?? ( cant remember exactly) and the OD of the rod blanks that I preferred was close to .36. That a lot of tape to wind on a blank. Epoxy doesnt penetrate the masking tape…the glue on the masking tape will eventually dry up…and then you end up with a reel seat that can slide back and forth. Graphite arbors ALSO allow better transmission of ??..“feeling”??..thru the rod. Masking tape has a tendancy to deaden any “vibes” that might come up the line to the rod to your hand…Graphite arbors wont do that nearly as bad. Thats one reason some bass fisherman use all graphite handles on their bass rods…for that sensitivity
Many times I could just ream out the ID of the wooden reelseat to about .375 and use that glued to the blank. And at times I wound course thread on the blank to “fill the gap” that was soaked in epoxy…allowed to dry and then the reelseat glued to the “thread bushings”.
One shouldnt build a flyrod that will last HIM the rest of his life…He should attempt to build it to last MANY lifetimes…and to be an object of beauty while its owned and used.
At one point, the world was deemed to be flat. Anyone thinking otherwise, was considered a heretic of the church and subject to the most extreme punishments - including death.
This is the case with publications suggesting masking tape arbors … old thinking. Put a wad of masking tape into a glass of water tonight and tell me how you feel about it tomorrow night. Polyurethane and foam graphite arbors are DEFINITELY far superior and the use of drywall tape and thread are a close second.
As far as the use of Quik Bond … it has a place on the shelf, but only gets used in 5-10% of the time - traditional Rod Bond is the other 90-95%. I was one of the folks that lobbied Ralph to create it, which he did. However, the cleanup time is MUCH shorter and you have to be EXTREMELY confident of what you are doing. If you are only making one purchase, definitely buy the regular cure product.
Jim -
Long time ago I knew a man named “Jim” that lived in Tampa and built rods. Was a member of the Custom Rod Builders Guild also…
EDIT: Nope! I went and looked at your profile etc…and your about 25 years younger than this guy would be now. He was / is a great rod maker though.
Sully, I’m not going to argue that graphite arbors are not a cleaner method, and I’m certainly no expert, I’m only working on my 5th rod (all for myself) and I actually did pick up arbors for it. My first rod only needed a few wraps of tape, the second I ordered arbors for it, but I had the size wrong and ended up using tape and it worked fine, so the rest I just used tape.
As far as sliding, I suppose if you built up the entire 4 inches or so of the blank under the seat you would have a point, but using 1/4" tape I only wrapped 2 places on the blank and let the epoxy fill in between. This is the method I saw in several books. No different then using two 1/2" graphite arbors under a 4" reel seat. No matter what the tape does, there is epoxy on both sides of tape and it’s solid from the blank to the inner edge of the seat. The seat is not going anywhere.
I’ve seen full length arbors, but gluing the arbor to the rod, then the rod to the arbors adds a weak spot if you ask me, and a damping spot in the arbor. That said I feel that having a large section of the blank glued directly to the seat (between the arbors), is much stronger joint, and better vibe transmission.
I imagine graphite might transmit vibrations from the rod a little better than tape, but not as well as through the solid epoxy, being that epoxy is much denser and has more mass. But objectively, two 1/2" wide graphite arbors -vs- two 1/2" wide masking tape arbors and both using the same amount epoxy, I serious doubt there would be any noticeable difference is feeling the any vibrations form the line. What you feel is coming through the solid epoxy.
No need to even disagree on the matter. You saw a previous poster spell it out free and clear…OLD LINE THINKING…
If you used two 1/4" wide tape arbors and the rest of the cavity was filled with glue…I dont know what to tell you…other than you would never sell me a rod construct that shabbily!
Any graphite arbor I ever used was a full inch long…and I used THREE under a 4 inch reel seat…that dont leave much space between but you can ignore that area its the SMALL GAP between the arbor and the insert thats holding the reelseat…NOT some huge canyon filled to the brim with epoxy.
“I’ve seen full length arbors, but gluing the arbor to the rod, then the rod to the arbors adds a weak spot if you ask me” Well…if properly fitted ( and that means relatively tightly for minimum glue gap) it doesnt! But if you think it does…what do you think masking tape ( and evidently NARROW bands of masking tape) do then?
A glue joint should be AS THIN as possible so that shear stresses cant work on it
I look all around so I can find a seat that will fit the blank I am using with minimum space for “slop” to fill with either arbor or tape. Seldom have to add either, other than just a little tape.
Just to add fuel to the fire, what about the idea that you can drill and tap epoxy? Paste epoxies are made to fill gaps and are easy to work with.
There are ways to make that big ol’ clump of epoxy between the tape arbors stronger that are in widespread use and it would make an essentially full length arbor. Mix a long set epoxy and once it is mixed, mix in fibers from shredded fiberglass mat. Pack that in your space between the tape arbors.
Another option would be to use fiberglass cloth soaked in mixed resin and wrap it on the blank forming a full length arbor. You need to take into account the blank taper, though.
Sully’s use of thread or string would work, quite well, too. However, all of these methods are messy as all get out if you do them right to get the material thoroughly soaked in mixed resin, and for them to work, the material MUST be soaked all the way through with resin.
The graphite arbors are resin mixed with graphite fibers. Tough stuff.
Since we are not towing trucks with these rods, or trying to bust rocks, or give our fishing partner blunt force trauma with the butt of our fishing rod, I believe that the properly fitted pair of graphite arbors, epoxied in place is as strong as is needed. You are going to break the rod itself long before the grip is going to be knocked loose. How many generations that takes depends on how careful you are. With reasonable care, it should last for a long, long time.
Sully, Sorry if I stuck a nerve. Was merely stating the tape arbors are just as viable as graphite to the home builder. But I guess I assumed the home builder part.
Like I said, I build them for me and not to sell, and they work just fine. Never said or implied it the was the only way or the right or wrong way, just the way I’ve done it.
Using tape arbors may be ‘old school’ but thats whats common in many published books on the subject. If you have a book published on the subject, please post the book info and I’ll gladly consider your advise as a credible source of rod building information, otherwise, your opinion is no better or worse than anyones else’s. Just another opinion. If you want to get all bent out of shape and call my work, (work that you have never seen by the way) shabby, I guess thats your prerogative and shows your narrow mindedness. However with an attitude like that you’d never sell ME one of your rods.
I have had the distinct pleasure of knowing Ralph O’Quinn (the developer/owner of Trondak/U40 products - LS Supreme, Rod Bond, Ferrule Lube, etc.) for quite some time. His background is simple … aerospace adhesives engineer for Boeing.
Ralph is well into his 80’s at this point and he was the primary developer for many of the adhesives in use in aviation today. I figure if his adhesive products hold together a 747 jumbo jet at 35,000 feet moving at 567mph … his knowledge far surpasses mine.
During almost every presentation he gives, he will tell folks one thing AT LEAST several times … “the thinnest glue line, is the strongest glue line - glue doesn’t work sticking to itself”.
The best arboring system is one with MINIMAL space for adhesives. Polyurethane arbors and graphite foam arbors are many times stronger than needed.
While I don’t pretend to know everything, I am 100% positive that masking tape is the last thing that I would use, or recommend to be used, to secure a reel seat.
Jim -
Just one more thing…
Epoxy is heavy.
You really don’t want to (nor do you need to) ‘fill’ in the voids between the arbors with epoxy.
You glue the arbors to the rod blank…you glue the reel seat to the arbors…you have two very strong epoxy joints involved that willhold up very well to the actual ‘stress’ of normal use.
All that ‘fill in’ epoxy does is add weight, not ‘strength’.
Masking tape is used to hold thing temporarily. Using it as an ‘arbor’ for a fishing rod is not something I’d consider…especially on a rod that I’m going to spend hours of my time on.
If the inner diameter of the reel seat is too large to fill with a few wraps of thread or string, the foam arbors are the next best method. Foam arbors are stronger, lighter, and simple to use.
I’ll skip tape of any kind and spend the couple of bucks to do it correctly.
If the money is an issue, you can make reasonable arbors with cork, wood, or even scrap plastic (given you have the tooling to do this).
Buddy
The problem is that they ARENT “just as good”…so why spend the time and money to build anything…even a birdhouse…if you dont attempt to do your very best on it???
What was the DATE on the last hardbacked book about rod building you read or even saw? Bet it wasnt 200x was it?
- I never attempted to SELL my flyrods ( which is all I ever had a desired to build) I built rods as a HOBBY…thusly as with most hobbys I could afford to do my utmost in making it…not only in construction labor but in materials.
- One doesnt have to visually see anothers rods if the second person has explained HOW he constructed them…to know the person isnt using the BEST in techniques and or materials.
You have no need whatsoever to belive what I may say…just read OTHERS postings on the same subject
AMEN! It dont take a lot of effort to chuck a piece of wood in a lathe and bore an ID to fit the blank…and turn the OD to fit the reelseat and in many cases even that isnt needed. I used a lot of Struble reelseats with wood inserts and the ID of the insert was always smaller than even the skinny fly rod blanks I used. Id just chick the wood insert into my lathe and bore the ID of it out. Done…no arbor needed.
Anybody got an extra lathe?
What was this thread about to begin with?