I was reading someone’s comment on another thread and thought it somewhat short-sighted. Or, maybe it’s me and I’m being too far-sighted. Anyway, he was talking about the wings on traditional wet flies and said the following:
“Flank feathers is a term that has been used for some reason for wings on a Traditional winged wet. When you cut a segment out of the flank feather it’s called a slip. You need a flank feathers that are paired left and rights.
To me when you use the term traditional winged wet, it means duck or goose quills, Turkey, Guinea Hen, barred Wood Duck, Bronze wood duck or Teal and lastly plain old paired left and right mallard flank.”
Now, the term ‘traditional’ may start in one era for some people, other eras for others and certain places for yet others. The tradition of wet fly usage and patterns here in the US, had its beginnings well before the turn of the 20th century. Regardless, sources I’ve read included flank feathered wings in the term traditional and that the way they are tied in did not have to be ‘slips’. They could be rolled as well.
Oh, I agree that when traditional wets are mentioned, quill slip wings are the first I think of. Indeed they are probably the most recognized and comprise the vast majority of patterns. My response was simply to question the absolute that traditional wets flies ‘must’ have wings of quill slips or flank ‘slips’.
I wouldn’t swear there are no traditional wet flies w/ flank wings but most of the patterns had quill wings. Many of the old dry fly patterns called for quill wings as well. That is before Mr Wulff came along and changed wings forever. Atlantic salmon patterns are another story as they still use a lot of flank slips in the wings.
I too am Guilty as charged…I feel the Quill slip wing is becoming a lost art…and for some rightfully so…they are not the easiest to tye…and in this computer age…easy is what most want…I love the look of the old Quill Winged Flies,Both Wet and Dry!
Glad I started with old books with old patterns and got a feel for tying them early on…still some of the kewlest flies to come outta my vise
Flank feather wings are just as traditional as quill segment wings. The Professor and the Grizzly King come to mind. They were created by two Professor brothers from the University of Edinburg in the 1830’s and have stood the test of time for over 175 years (still sold in most fly fishing catalogs). The wings are made from mallard flank feathers, as are many other old wets. I don’t think you’ve chosen the right word when you use the word “traditional”. Flank feather wings are just as traditional and popular as quill wings, not only from a historical standpoint but even right up to the present. I am a wet fly fisherman first and foremost and I much prefer the flank feather wings over the quill slips. Those are not just opinions, those are facts.
Later, RW
“We fish for pleasure; I for mine, you for yours.” -James Leisenring on fishing the wet fly-
I wanted to chime in last night on this but I was tying flies and gotten tired and felt go to bed was my best option. But now it’s morning, Hah! I"m awake. Now as I stated in another post, Traditional wet flies were made with left and right flank feathers/quills/Peacock sword and so on. Ther are some exception to the rules. Flank feathers like Wood Duck, specially wood duck that is used in the creation of Catskill dry flies is first of all hard to find pairs in, and second it can become very expensive in doing so. So for the most part the folded wing on wet flies far as flank feathers was created and used. I am doing the folded method for RW’S Dark Hendrickson wet flies. For the reason I just mentioned. The second reason which applies for some was just laziness. Todays modern tyesrs that you have seen attempted to tie wet flies with flank do not know how to do this at all. Mainly do to lack of information. Tyers like Allan and RW that are very knowledgable knows a lot of history and true stories. These two are exceptions to the rule and are not what I call your normal every day fly tyer. Most of todays fly tyers are not armed with the history or have seen any educatonal or instructional videos on wet fly tying. There are some videos but a lot of the tyers and or shops even know this. Also wet fly tying has been a forgotten art and the industry has pushed it away. These flies as your all aware require practice, patience a some techniques to tie one that is truly pretty.
Second the Alexandria is a good exception to the rule, keep in mind if this fly is tied correctly the wing will be tied with Left and Right peacock sword quill segments. So in my eye it truly does follow the rule of left and right quill segments/flank feathers. Just my two cents worth for this this moment in time.
well since I’ve never had an invite…I’ll see if ya still got a spot open as I am just finnishing up my last swap as I write this…and did not want to stop just yet!..
I fully understand what you meant when you described the style of fly you wanted swappers to submit for the swap. It’s your swap and you set the theme. As you should. I hope you did not misunderstand what I was trying to say. Actually, my comment was in response to another tier’s post. I simply wanted to convey that, while most wet flies that are considered ‘traditional’ have some type of quill wings or wings from slips of flank feathers, these are not ‘absolute’ characteristics. There are other feathers and techniques as well.
In Leonard’s book, he illustrates 12 wing types. 4 quill slips, a hackle tip, a roll,a spoon,a flat,hair,and 3 misc.
In Sturgis’ book, he gives the recipes for 50 wet flies: 28 have quill wings; 15 have other types; 6 have 0 wings; and 1 I couldn’tmake out.
In the illustrations of Bernards flies from ‘Treaty’, there are several wet flies without quill slip wings.
Again,it all goes back to what someone considers traditional.
Now, as I said, your swap. You described the theme and rules very well. Traditional wet flies using quill wings. Someone else chimed in with an ‘absolute’ that all traditional wet flies had certain types of wings. It was that comment I disagreed with. Now this may pi** some off, but the wet fly tradition did not start with Ray Bergman.
Well Stated Allan!..They go back well past what was written for sure…I’d say it’ll never be know how long the wet fly has been in existance,Or in what fourms…I just know what appeals most…to mine eye!
To each tyer their start was different…and thus we all hold different asspects dear in our own tying…Which is awesome…It would make for boreing swaps if it were not so!!!..I never said it but the flies you sent us/me in the beginner swap you hosted a while back…are some of the best “Catskill” tied flies I’ve yet seen!..IMHO…Thanks for the start in swapping it has been nothing but a joy!
“I’ve often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before” A.K.Best
Everyone wants to excel in this sport but at the same time we let traditionalists place restrictions on our tactics, methods, and ideas. I always assumed that fly fishing was a sport that allowed imagination, creation, adaptation, investigation, dedication, education, revelation? : Fox Statler, On Spinners (Not the dainty Dry Fly kind) “Spinner’d Minner Fly”
Far as wet flies in general then a statement about paired wings is false. I know this because I also tie wet flies Tweed, Derbyshire, Clyde, Tummold and yes my favorite after Ray Bergman Welch. As stated many times before wet flies in the world at one point in time could be told where they where from just based on the wing style and hackling. Theodore Gordon fished many of traditional winged wet flies. The American father of wet fly fishing Leisenring did not. It was Ray Bergman that got the wet fly back in popularity in the USA. Yes he tied them but he told how to fish them and also written about his numerous fishing experiences with wet fly, bait and Dry and so on. Ray was the Flyfishermens fishermen. I really never see you tie these flies or even attemp to tie the other styles of wet fly winging. Funny part, was no one ever mentioned Bergman and that the first thing that comes to your mind. I ruly like to read from Orvington, Fogg, E.M. Todd and yes Ray Bergman, Theodore Gordon only from the complete Fishermen and Mary Orvis Marbury and Helen Shaw and of Course from my mentor Don Bastian. I also thought Peter Gathercole was very intersting to read on his take on wet flies and John Verniard. I just like to see you get so hyped up over a very large topic that the surface has only been touched upon. Bergman is only one of many parts of the equation. Get over it.
Allan is not too big on wet flies but that is just his thing. I noticed you mentioned Gordon and you are dead right. Gordon fished wet flies right up until the time that he caught the dry fly bug from Halford and his cronies in England. But although he is considered the Father of the dry fly here in America, unlike Halford, he continued to fish wets even after he became enamored with the dry fly craze that was beginning to take shape.
As far as Leisenring goes, most of his wets resembled soft hackles more than they did what most folks refer to as “classic” wets. (tyflier take note: “classic” as opposed to “traditional” is a better description…lol) Also, if you look at the one book that Leisenring wrote with Hidy, you will notice that they are the “ugliest” wet flies you ever saw. Leisenring’s reputation was made on his ability to read water and catch hecatombs of trout where others couldn’t, and big ones too, particularly in the Brodheads Region of Pennsylvania. He was a wet fly man all the way and most of his fame was built on that ability and that reputation…and being in the right place at the right time. Hidy befriended Leisenring. They fished together all the time, and Hidy parlayed that friendship into his his own little piece of fame based on that friendship and his hardest efforts to make the word “flymph” part of the everyday vernacular of fly fishing. He didn’t succeed, and fly fishers went for the more practical expression …soft hackles. Leisenring was a big ham-handed, blue collar guy who never wanted to write a book, and without Hidy he probably never would have. The one thing Vernon Hidy did do for him was make him famous by helping him write it. You could say they complimented each other in that way.
Later, RW
“We fish for pleasure; I for mine, you for yours.” -James Leisenring on fishing the wet fly-
RW,
I know that you are an admirer of Leisenring and Hidy but some of your statements seem harsh or misleading…
"As far as Leisenring goes, most of his wets resembled soft hackles more than they did what most folks refer to as “classic” wets. (tyflier take note: “classic” as opposed to “traditional” is a better description…lol) "
If you look at the book 8 of the 21 flies pictured have wings, more than just a few but certainly most were wingless wets.
“…Also, if you look at the one book that Leisenring wrote with Hidy, you will notice that they are the “ugliest” wet flies you ever saw. Leisenring’s reputation was made on his ability to read water and catch hecatombs of trout where others couldn’t, and big ones too, particularly in the Brodheads Region of Pennsylvania.”
Would you not agree that his “ugly” flies had something to do with his success?
“He was a wet fly man all the way”
This is not entirely true . He used Dry Flies as well,when needed and it has been reported the Dry flies he tied were exquisitely tied. Also do we now classify nymphs and emergers (flymphs) as Wet Flies?
…and most of his fame was built on that ability and that reputation…and being in the right place at the right time.
Could you elaborate on this statement? Could this not the same for Theodore Gordon as well, if I understand your previous statement correctly?
“…Hidy befriended Leisenring. They fished together all the time, and Hidy parlayed that friendship into his own little piece of fame based on that friendship”
Are you now begrudging Hidy for being in the right place at the right time as well? It is a known fact that authors and publishers had been after Leisenring for years to document his angling knowledge , he simply chose Hidy for this task. Perhaps he felt he could trust him with the knowledge and have the information come out the way he wanted it.
“…and his ( Hidy) hardest efforts to make the word “flymph” part of the everyday vernacular of fly fishing. He didn’t succeed, and fly fishers went for the more practical expression …soft hackles.”
This is not true the proper term would have to be EMERGERS not soft hackles. Leisenring used various degrees of stiffness for his wingless wets, with the type of water being fished, the insects and the aquatic environment they live in dictate hackle stiffness. Calling them Soft Hackles would be a misnomer.
Leisenring was a big ham-handed, blue collar guy…
While this may be true to a degree,your statement makes it seem as if Leisenring was an Oaf who ties were sloppy to those unfamiliar with his techniques and flies. This simply was not the case, he was a HIGHLY skilled tool and die maker who was given the most demanding and exacting jobs by his employer. The fact that he would be allowed back to work after taking every entire fishing season off by his employer is testimony to skills. This fact is really driven home by the fact he did this thru out the depression of the 1930’s
“…who never wanted to write a book, and without Hidy he probably never would have.”
I can’t argue this fact. Thank you Mr. Hidy.
“… The one thing Vernon Hidy did do for him was make him famous by helping him write it. You could say they complimented each other in that way.”
Leisenring was a Legendary Fly Fishing figure long before the book ever came out. The book certainly did forge Leisenring’s name into Fly Fishing History. But this is because of the information in the book,not because of some “legendary” cult status he had achieved in his lifetime. I agree whole heartily that Leisenring and Hidy complimented each other and I’m thankful that they did, otherwise over 50 years of fly fishing genius would have been lost, retarding our collective fly fishing knowledge for years.
Seems to me we owe a lot to Mr.Hidy for his being at the right place at the right time, and not being a writer, I do not begrudge him of this one bit, I’m simply glad that Leisenring chose him for the task. He handled the job wonderfully, this due in no small part to his attention to detail and his awareness of Fly fishing history,past present and future. Perhaps if
Leisenring had requested anonymity as Marryatt had with Halford we would be calling Hidy the father of American Wet Fly fishing.
Jim
I really enjoy watching you guys go back and forth and also the fierceness with which you state your spin on some tyer or fisherman from the past who like Jim L. died before most of you were born and so know only from what you all have read and probably the same book at that.
Slats, you sound like an admirer of Jim’s.Your post is actually very well written. I have no idea whether it is all correct or not and even though it is just your opinion you sure sound like you’d like to sumo wrestle the wulffman.
Are you the same Jim’s flies that I see on ebay?
It is often hard to get a true handle on someone from the past. We can’t 'know ’ them personally. We can only read and interpret.
The next best thing to actually knowing the person is to get hold of old letters they wrote from relatives, museums and Universities…if letters exist and talk to relatives and fishing partners , if they are still around… A book by that person and worse yet, a book about that person are the last places to get a true feel of what the person was like.
But, we either like or dislike what we read and there too the author.
And Andy, it seems like only yesterday that you were Don Bastians little groupie, sometimes, as Donnie would say, a real little pain in the…neck. (He speaks of you warmly) You certainly shot up to expert status quickly…Good teacher I guess.
The internet has created lots of experts, hasn’t it? I love it…make a great book some day…
Well, see some of you guys at Marlboro and some at Somerset or Chicago…
Allan, Are you not going to be tying with the guild? We can stick a rollaway in our room with myself and Brandt…Oh, I just remembered…the dogs…
Any word from your son in Iraq? Or is it Afghanistan?
