If I sit down to tie Thorax Duns size 14 and I size my hackle for a 14 hook, have I already made a mistake?
Most Thorax ties I’ve seen require wrapping the hackle on top of the hook which has already been wrapped with dubbing towards the eye of the hook.
Since the effective diameter of the hook shank has changed slightly, should I be measuring my hackle for Thorax Flies one size smaller?
Hi RkyMtnGuy,
I suppose you could if you wanted to but each hackle size has a range of lengths within a particular size. This is especially evident if you size hackle with the old Sturgis hackle gage. Even when using a “bend the feather around a pin” style of gage there is a distance between #12 line and the #14 line. Let us know what you decide, I don’t think there is an right answer. Take care & …
Tight Lines - Al Beatty [url=http://www.btsflyfishing.com:8ca64]www.btsflyfishing.com[/url:8ca64]
Al,
Thank you for your commentary. Your input regarding hackle gauges brings another question or two to mind.
I personally use a HACKLEMASTER of Al Troth design. But are all hackle gauges created equally?
The Al Troth model is of the “pin” design but it is a pin of a much, much larger diameter than a typical diameter of a fly hook! Does that make a difference?
Next question. You mention the space between sizes, example 12 and 14. I would assume if the hackle touches the 12 line, it’s a twelve but what about the hackle that falls between the 12 and 14 lines and the 10 and 12 lines, is it then up to the tyer as to what is acceptable?
[This message has been edited by RkyMtnGuy (edited 27 September 2005).]
Interesting questions; looking forward to the answers. I would think that the diameter of the pin wouldn’t make any difference since you are measuring the hackle from the closest edge of the pin to the gauge. I have heard that Hackle Gauge Brand X measures a full one hook size different than Hackle Gauge Brand Y.
Joe
Hi again,
You said <I personally use a HACKLEMASTER of Al Troth design. But are all hackle gauges created equally?
The Al Troth model is of the “pin” design but it is a pin of a much, much larger diameter than a typical diameter of a fly hook! Does that make a difference?>
My answer: It shouldn’t make any difference; the length of the barb is the same length from the stem to its tip whether it is against a large pin or a hook shank. The smaller shank would only make the fibers spread more but they are still the same length.
You asked:<Next question. You mention the space between sizes, example 12 and 14. I would assume if the hackle touches the 12 line, it’s a twelve but what about the hackle that falls between the 12 and 14 lines and the 10 and 12 lines, is it then up to the tyer as to what is acceptable?>
My answer: All of the fibers that fall between the #10-#12 lines would be a #12 until the fiber touches the #10 line, then it is size #10. I think the only thing a tier needs to do is decide if he/she wants to mix little #12’s with big #12’s. If that makes any sense. I have all the gages but have not used one for years. As much as Gretchen and I tie we have gotten very good at “eyeballing” hackle sizes. Take care & …
Tight Lines - Al Beatty [url=http://www.btsflyfishing.com:d82af]www.btsflyfishing.com[/url:d82af]
Rky,
I’nm sure Al will answer but I thought I’d throw in my $0.02 anyway.
“are all hackle gauges created equally?”
< They are not but don’t ask me the specific differences or why.
Does the diameter of the ‘pin’ make a difference?
< In and of itself it should not. But then, different gauges are different.
As far as actual measurements within the lines of a gauge, the hackle is theoretically, according to that gauge, a specific size if the hackle does not exceed the next size. So a size 14 hackle is anything from the 14 line up until it touches the 12 line. At that point, according to that gauge, it becomes a size 12 hackle.
As I said, just my $0.02 (accounting for inflation)(-;.
Allan
Al Troth is a friend of mine and I have talked to him many times in the winter up here. We use to run a good phone bill just gabbing. I can tell you that Al Troth is the pickiest tier that I know. I also know that on his Elk Hair Caddis the size of hackle is to the hook point and no bigger. Most people tie it larger than he does. Unless he has changed? And knowing him he hasn’t.
I have one of his guages and it is his idea of what hackle should be and I would bet it was built to his speck’s and he made sure it was to his speck’s.
I use to buy gold wire from him as he was the only person that I knew that had it made to his speck’s for his EHC.
As for the Thorax flies I use one size smaller in the hackle. I know a lot of people that trim the bottom of the hackle or cut a “V” in the bottom. It all works so do what you like. Most people I tie for do not seem to mind how you do them as long as they float well and look good and are tied well. Ron
Hi Group,
Joe asked about gages and whether they all sized the same. Quite frankly they do not. Usually dry fly hackle is about 1 & 1/2 times the distance of the hook gape.
Now that brings us to hooks. Not all hooks have the same distance in their gapes. Up to size #14 most dry fly hooks on the market today are fairly consistent but from #16 to #24 there is a lot of difference. There is almost one size difference between a #20TMC and a #20 94840Mustad. When I was developing the 100’s for Whiting we had to deal with that difference because we needed a gage to send to the factory that sizes the feathers that would fit most tying situations. So I ran a study of 50 fly shops across the country and at that time the most popular dry fly hook was the TMC 100 (68% of sales went in its direction across the country, I think Jeff and the guys at Mustad with their new hook series maybe putting a hurt on that direction). With that information I developed a hackle gage based on the TMC100 - for a time it was printed on the back of one of the saddle packages, I don’t remember which one. Today Whiting has a new gage on the market that looks GREAT but I’ve not compared it to the prototype gages I still have in my tying room. Back to the question of gages; several of them I have in my tying room are based on the Mustad hook except the prototypes I made for Whiting. Take care & …
Tight Lines - Al Beatty [url=http://www.btsflyfishing.com:44e95]www.btsflyfishing.com[/url:44e95]
And I thought I was picky,Had been eyeballing my hackles for so long that I forget when my hackle guage became lost…
But since moving here from PA and not tying much till lately…I’ve bought a new one Thompson I think “PIN” type…was amazed at how much you don’t forget…but it is nice to be sure.
“I’ve often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before” A.K.Best
“Wish ya great fishing”
Bill