The technique that the Dettes used really only works if you do not use a bobbin. Although if you use a shorty type bobbin it will work. Basically you make a tapered dubbing noodle, which is done by pulling a little bit of fur out of a ball of dubbing and twist it with your finger until you form a slender tapered fur rope. Then you tie it in at the tail and then twist the rope and thread together.
Mary still uses this technique and you won’t believe how fast and cleanly you can dub a body this way,once you get used to it.
Jim
The hackle on Art Flick’s flies(variants) ARE NOT “4 times the hook size”. They are 2 sizes, possibly 3, larger than the typical hackle size for a specific hook. Think about it.
I am sorry I worded that wrong, it is four sizes larger. That means on a size 12 it is size 4 on the Dette gauge. I took out one of Art’s Gray Fox Variants and double checked this.
Sorry for the mix up.
Joe
[This message has been edited by ashbourn (edited 31 August 2005).]
Actually to make this even less understandable to me, the gauge provided by RonMT states that, “The line that the fiber tip touches is the hook size that the hackle should be tied on.”
Steve,
I scratched my head when this was first revealed to me too. But a size 14 hackle for a size 16 hook for a “catskill” Dette style dry. Now you know the secret of why the your flies and most everyone elses never quite looked the same as those we were emulating.
Jim
So using the Dette gauge, I take my size 16 hook, I match up my hackle to the size 14 line, and then I match up my wing to the size 12 line? Is this right?
Here’s another question? Why hasn’t Mary Dette ever written a book or even a pamphlet? There would certainly seem to be demand out there, yet she seems to let other people speak for her.
In the investment world, this is roughly akin to Warren Buffet. The world’s greatest investor has never written his own book so others write books trying to detail his theories and disciplines from things he’s said or written in the past.
Steve,
You now have the proportions right, as the Dettes tie them.
Eric Leiser wrote a fantastic book about the Dettes called , what else, “The Dettes, a Catskill legend”.
This book is split in two sections. The first half is about the Dettes and the Catskill region from their vantage point in history. the second half is dedicated to fly tying and patterns. You can find a few copies online if you look around.
Here is the Dettes flyshop # they may have a few left. 607-498-4991.
Jim
Now that, as simple as it sounds, is a loaded question.
Todays genetic hackle has more barbs per inch and therefore more dense than hackle of years ago. My guess, and it’s just that, is to keep with the concept of ‘sparse’. If you’re using hackle with high barb content, you may need less wraps to get the look you want. Hackle with lower barb count will likely require more wraps.
Steve,
Allan is right.
As a general rule , and I’m sure I’m going to be blasted, 10 to 12 wraps. This is true if you use Hebert or Metz hackle. 10 probably is the magic number, but not set in stone. Again this is the way Mary usually ties them, as her parents did in the past,even when using genetic hackle, which first came out in the late 70’s.
If you are using Whiting farms then you may use fewer wraps,particularlly when using saddle hackle.
2 wraps in the back 3 in the front times 2 hackles.
I strongly suggest you call the Dette shop and purchase the book from them, if they still have any. You will not regret it.
Jim
Here?s some information about the quantity (using ?turns? as a reference) of hackle. Bear in mind the availability of hackle, the quality and the barb count when these tiers wrote or provided the information.
Per Reuben Cross: ?Now select two brown hackles ? catch the tip end of the hackles with your pliers and wind around the hook, making about two and a half turns back of wing and wind remainder, or as much of it as you can, in front of the wings. When whisks of hackle get doubled under straighten them out with the needle. After making two turns in front of the wing use the nails of your thumb and index finger to push hackle back from eye of hook, keeping this up until you have all the hackle wound on, which should be about three turns in front of wings.? (the illustrations and the narrative indicate he tied both hackles at the same time)
P.S. Cross tied his tails on first, wings on second.
Per Dette?s: ?Select two hackle feathers ? Wind one hackle at a time around the shank to form the hackle collar. About three turns in back and three in the front of the wing should suffice.?
P.S. The Dette?s:
a) Tied the wings on first, tails on second.
b) Specifically mention pre-sorting and sizing hackles. In fact, the book says that is the reason Elsie Bivens, later Elsie Darbee, was hired to do that work so Harry, Walt and Winnie could concentrate on tying.
Per Darbee: In his book, Harry Darbee does not specify the number of turns of hackle. ?The Catskill style of flytying is known for its sparsely tied dry-fly hackles. You can tie a fly without making it bulky and yet have plenty of hackle to float it. The better hackle you use, the less you need to use.?
P.S. The Darbee?s:
a) Tied the wings first, tails second.
b) Used doubled slips from the woodduck flank for wings.
c) Specifically mention pre-sorting and sizing hackles.
Ten wraps of hackle? TEN?? Well, maybe for the streams up north, I know the Ausable is brutal, I stumbled around it some this summer. A couple of things. For the guy who has the Art Flick Red Quill and its hackle is 2 times the gap. I’ve got the Streamside guide here, and there is one fly in it that’s 2 times, one that’s about gap length, and the rest are about 1 1/2 times the gap, the way they should be (grin). That said, in the Masters Fly Tying guide, the Hendrickson in there has hackle about 2 1/2 times the gap. I think the tiers of that day were at the mercy of some really crappy hackle, and I’m not sure we can conclude much.
Fran Betters grew up in Wilmington, N.Y., and grew up fishing with Ray Bergman, Lee Wulff and Red Wilbur, so where he gets his “Western” style of tying is a mystery to me. When I was a kid in the early 60s, his flies were a welcome relief from the oversized Catskill stuff we normally got up there, so if Western they are, then Western am I. All this said, I love the Cahill that Jim Slattery has on his site, and have been known to tie a fly with hackle 2 times the gap myself every now and again. Passions really run high with this stuff, and everyone knows they’re method is the right one. I know I’m positive mine’s right. (grin)
Eric
[This message has been edited by eaustin (edited 01 September 2005).]
Here are the sizes of flies tied by Art Flick that I personally measured. The first number is the width of the hook gap. The second number is the hackle height. Measurements are in mm. If I placed a (v) next to the hackle, it means the pattern was a ‘variant’.
You can easily see that not many are ‘exact’ and the ratios differ.
I also just looked at the photos in the book you mentioned. It’s difficult to make out the exact height of those hackles.
Hi Eric,
When I say “western” ,I mean shorter than Catskill style hackle and a little more of it.
I can vouch for the authenticity of Joe Fox’s Flick Red Quill or any other Flick fly he has. Art was a close friend of the Dettes.
As far as being at the mercy of crappy hackle it is a problem that’s still here. Ever try tying a Dun Variant with today’s hackle, good luck.I guess it just depends on what side of the fence you are looking from.
Remember we are talking about “Catskill Style” dry flies here.
The “Standard” dry fly hackle is 1 1/2 to 2 times the gape width…unless you use wide gape, but as you know that’s another ball of wax.
Jim
Fair enough Allan, and I agree that it is somewhat difficult to exactly gauge the hackle length in the Streamside Guide, but you must agree that there is considerable difference from fly to fly in the book. Of course, the Variants are a whole different matter, and when I talk about hackle length on a Catskill fly I’m not talking about Variants. That’s what makes them Variants, after all.
You know as well as I do that book after book, correctly or incorrectly, has the hackle at 1 1/2 times the hook gap. That was the standard as I understood it in the '60s, and it’s the standard today. I just looked at a dry fly hackle size chart in E.C. Gregg’s book How to Tie Flies ((1940). I measured the radius of the hackle for a #14 at 6 cm. I then measured the gap of a Mustad #14 hook at 4 cm. So the hackle is, guess what, 1 1/2 times the hook gap. O.K that was then, this is now. How about Claude Chartrand’s book The Art of Fly Tying? He doesn’t even screw around, he has a picture with “proper hackle proportions” on page 57, hackle 1 1/2 times the gap. O.K., he’s Canadian, what does he know? Let’s check Dick Stewart’s Universal Fly Tying Guide. He shows the hackle lenth as 14 cm on page 10, the gap is 9, again, about 1 1/2. Look at the pictures in J. Edson Leonards “Flies”, clearly 1 1/2, and I measured. Here’s what the Fly Tier’s Benchside Reference has to say:
"If you have, for instance, dressed a #14 hook with a #14 hackle, and the final result shows barbs that extend downward to a length twice the hook gap, dress the next fly with a hackle sized to #16 and check the result. If, on the other hand, the hackle barbs are too short, use a larger one on the next fly. "
Here, the intimation is that 2 times the gap is wrong. Under “Sizing Hackle” on the previous page the authors state:
“At any rate, in a combination of trial-and-error tradition, modern tyers have adopted the following proportions for standard dry flies:
Tail = length of the hook shank
Hackle barbs= 1 1/2 times the hook gap”
O.K., what do they know, they’re talking about MODERN fly tiers. Let’s measure the hackle in Ray Bergman’s book “Trout”, he knew what he was doing. Guess what…
I think you are getting away from the point, we are talking hardcore Catskill flies. Most people do not tie at same proportions as the masters did. I know that the standard is 1 and 1/2 and almost any book you read that is the size. I am talking about just what the old school tyers did Dette, Darbee, Cross, and a number of others. I am not talking about northern New York or western.
Joe Fox
[This message has been edited by ashbourn (edited 01 September 2005).]
O.K. then, hardcore starts and ends with the Dettes and the Darbys, I can buy that. More a historical thing, like the classic salmon flies. And I’ll be the first to admit that my concept of the Catskill fly is more grounded in functionality than history. These proportions have worked solidly for me over the years, and so I’ve begun to think of them as cast in stone. I’ll also stipulate that way back, the flies WERE bigger, larger in every way, as were I think, the insects. I mean, look at the fan wings, which were VERY popular when I started. The Red Quill is another great example, a #12 originally, now a #14 ( at least here in Ohio ). By the time we’re 80 the average size will be #20. I can remember when a #18 fly was considered microscopic, and now, it’s the average size dry that I tie.
Eric