adso4
If you’ll explain to me how the turle or figure 8 knot influence drag and balance differently from the clinch or improved clinch knot, I’ll buy into your assesment. 
slw,
Just a guess: Possibly the weight, allbeit miniscule, of the knot behind the eye is closer to the center of the hook and gives better balance(?).
Allan
slw,
I think someone other than me will be more helpful to explain how different knots may influence balance and drag in different ways. As I said, my opinion is just humble. I am sorry not to be more helpful. It was merely my guess.
[This message has been edited by adso4 (edited 30 August 2005).]
Allen
No sale. 
slw
I’ll find that out for you I forget the reason off hand.
tyeflies
Mary does you the center of the feather, Winnie used another method that only used 1 and 1/2 feathers per fly.
The hackle does dictate everything about the fly, it is measured first and if it is a little long or short the wings are then made a little long or short
The wings are tied in first, then the tail is just long enough so that the bend of the hook is just above the ground. The size of the hackle changes the size of the tail and because the tail size can be change very easily. Now the size of the body IS SHORTER but still is back to the barb of the hook or before the bend, the reason it is shorter is the wings have to be a little more back to allow for the head. This being said the wings are ABOUT 1/3 of the way back on the hook. Again if the wings are a hair too far up or back more wraps are taken around one side of the other to ensure the hackle is still the same width.
Double split wings a topic that Mary hates. Walt changed from them to dyed mallard body feathers, they lasted long and worked better.
Joe Fox
My Turn.
Allan,
You have to understand that in the last year and a half I have spent over a month 6-8 hours a day tying alongside of Mary Dette.
The reasons being 1. Mary has befriended me and has allowed me to have her as a mentor. I guess we’re like minded. 2. I have an almost insaitable need of the knowledge that only she can provide. If you want to tie like the best ,you need to know the whys and how comes. 3. Probably from a professional aspect this is the most important reason but on a personal level it is of inconsequence as reasons 1&2 far out way it, I tie for her shop and need to know exactly how she wants the flies tied.
Having said that , the first thing you do when tying a Dette Dry fly is select your hackle. You use a hackle gauge and measure them to be one size over the hook size you are using. You do not allow the hackle to be larger than the next size, as a rule of thumb , but nobody is going to call the Hackle Police if it is a smidge over. As a rule of thumb , it is prefered that the hackle be 1 Hook size over or under but not the same size as the hook you are using. It’s a neat system that works.
Next is tying in the wing . Ideally you want the wing to be 2 hook sizes over the hook size you are tying on the hackle gauge. Again if you are using hackle that is a little short you want to tie the wing in a little short, this is the ideal. When you have a large order you may just use the gauge and forget about being that picky, it’s hard to remember which hackle pair is a little short when you have 2 or 3 dozen hackle sets laying in front of you. Next is the the tail, and as I previously posted it should be the size of the wing ,Ideal, or a little longer. This is the least important measurement in getting the proportions of the fly.
If I’m not correct your study kinda proves this out. Next time , perhaps you could use a inch ruler, I think 1/64th will give you a more accurate measurement as it is a smaller increment to measure with and the hooks are based on Inch measurements opposed to metric.
As for wether or not the Darbees tied double slip wings the answer is yes, at least at first. Harry Darbee tied for Walt Dette Flies and Tackle before he went out on his own. This is a FACT. Walt Dette & Company tied them this way because it was the standard of the day. The wealthy Angling Club Members DEMANDED it, and in the 30’s who is going to argue with a paying customer.
Facts nothing but the straight unadulterated facts.
Hans,
in regard to hackle quality and barb size determining the hackle that was being used. The lack of short fibered hackle was not the issue. People fished Dries predominately in sizes 10, 12 and 14. Tiers had access to hackles that would tie at least to a size 18 . It is when you get to size 20 and below the going gets really tuff.Granted size 18’s were tuff. As far as Hackle quality the Dette’s stopped selling Materials soon after they started as they felt compelled to sell their “Best” materials to their customers. Customer satisfaction was always the priority with the Dettes as they stood behind everything they ever sold.The Dette’s did not tie with “commercial” grade hackle, unless of course it was of a high grade but lacking the full range of hackle sizes. They bought indian capes by the thousands and culled what they wanted and sold of the rest to material houses.
Because of the lack of quality and practically non-exsistant supply of blue dun Walt was forced to grow his own and in turn so did Harry. While Walt detested this part of the business Harry enjoyed it. These brood stocks are what became the Herbert/Miner , Collins, and Metz brands of hackle.
SLW,
The gap in front of the eye on dry flies was to Keep a free clear head and to prevent chafing of the leader on the head. this is paraphrased from the 1934 Dette catalog. Also this is something that their customers in the beginning DEMANDED .
They wanted a unencumbered view of thw eye so they could tie their fly on easier.
The Dettes also had gaps on thier wets, very small, Nymphs a little larger and Streamers, sometimes quite large.This may not have been true on every pattern they tied but there was a more than a few that were tied this way, Again this was dictated by the customer.
I rest my case,LOL.
Take care,
Jim
[url=http://www.Jimsflyco.com:04ac8]www.Jimsflyco.com[/url:04ac8]
[This message has been edited by Jim Slattery (edited 31 August 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Jim Slattery (edited 31 August 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Jim Slattery (edited 31 August 2005).]
Jim,
Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge in great details.
Jim, thank you as well.
One question, when you say one size greater, do you mean like going from a 14 to a 15, or do you mean going from a 14 to a 16?
-Steven
Hi Steve,
Great question. 10,12,14,16… not 12,13,14,15,16…
Jim
[url=http://www.Jimsflyco.com:ea491]www.Jimsflyco.com[/url:ea491]
Thanks Jim,
Just to follow-up then. Suppose I’m tying a size 16 Sulphur. I would go to my trusty Dette Hackle Gauge (that RonMT so kindly provided) and size my wing length wise equal to a 12?
It would be no bigger then a 12. This is not something set in stone, the dettes did their wings a little longer then most did, many do half way between 14 and 12 on a 16 so it is clearly above the hackle.
Thanks Ashbourn.
Then one last question for either you or Jim:
Jim wrote that:
“the first thing you do when tying a Dette Dry fly is select your hackle. You use a hackle gauge and measure them to be one size over the hook size you are using. You do not allow the hackle to be larger than the next size, as a rule of thumb , but nobody is going to call the Hackle Police if it is a smidge over. As a rule of thumb , it is prefered that the hackle be 1 Hook size over or under but not the same size as the hook you are using. It’s a neat system that works.”
So, if I’m using a size 16 Mtd 94840, then I go to the Dette hackle gauge that RonMt provided and measure to a size 14? Does this make sense?
Jim I was told that it was for the knot and I guess I (Like others) just took it to mean “an area for the knot” I guess as you say it was to make it easier to tie the knot and so the head would not chafe it. Gut tippet materail was a lot different than mono is.
As for the hackle guages that I have. I have several of them. I have always used the Dette Guage just as it is marked. I have one that Harry gave me and One that Dan Bailey made an gave to me. They are all very close to the same in size of hackle used.
I have a dozen or so Dete flies and some of Harry’s and a few Flick flies and also some of Dan Baileys flies. They are all just a hair different but all are close excpet for Dan Bailyes flies. After moving out west he saw the need for more hackle on a fly so he went with several more turns of it on his flies but his older flies or spring creek flies were tied sparse just like the Catskill Flies were.
The hackle guadge that I like to use is the one that Dan Bailey gave me. It is just a white card with lines marked on it and the size of hook on each line. All you do is stick it into the hackle with out bending it and it will tell you if that hackle is the proper size for the fly you wish to tie. Real easy to use and you do not have to bend the hackle or pull it of the cape first.
I wonder in 30 years who the Guy’s and Gal’s will be that are talking about this same Topic? LOL Ron
Steven
That is correct a size 16 94840 has a size 14 hackle, do note that this is just for most dry flies, for caddis a size 16 hook would have a 16 hackle
RonMT
The reason for the different sizes of the Dette and Darbee flies hackle is because back when they first started the hooks they used were odd sizes, then during the war the hook factory was bombed, this required them to change hooks, the Mustad hook were in even sizes, the Dette’s changed their gauge a little to change for the hooks where the Darbee’s did not and continued to use odd sized hackle. I am not sure of the difference in size but it would not matter much.
Jim if I am wrong on anything please let me know that is my understanding from another Strays, but have not asked Mary about it.
Joe Fox
Jim
Thanks.
Steve,
Joe Fox is correct.Size 14 hackle on a size 16 hook.
Joe,
The Dettes used even numbered hooks . Check out the catalogs in Eric Leiser’s book, Harry used 0dd numbered hooks when he started his own business with Elsie.
Jim
[url=http://www.Jimsflyco.com:bd48d]www.Jimsflyco.com[/url:bd48d]
Jim, I must take issue. No, I have not spent time at Mary Dette’s knee, learning to tie just the way she does. But I have a question. Was she the only one tying Catskill flies during the 30s, 40s and 50s? After hearing your description of the “proper” proportions I went on Hans’ site and looked at her flies and sure enough, there they were, the proportions you describe. But when I look at fly plates in the J.Edson Leonard and the Ray Bergman books, and I realize these are artist’s renderings, I don’t see those proportions at all, nor do I remember Fran Betters or other fine tiers in the 60s using these. Maybe by then things had been lost in translation or something, but Art Flick, to name one, didn’t use those proportions. I mean, that hackle looks HUGE to me. I’m sure the fly works fine, don’t get me wrong, because everything is big. But to limit the idea of the Catskill fly to what one tier did, I’m not so sure. I know the bugs did get smaller over time, maybe the proportions did as well. Wasn’t it Darbee who secretly tied everything on one size smaller (odd size) hook so his customers would think his flies were more compact? I really respect your depth of knowlege about the Catskill fly by the way, I’m just not sure about Mary Dette’s proportions. Maybe at one time they were just right, they just don’t seem right to me now.
Eric
Eric,
The Dette’s Walt and Winnie started tying professionaly in the 20’s. Mary started in the 50’s. They all tied virtually the same by using this proportion system. This system was based on flies tied by mainly Rube Cross and Roy Steenrod. Winnie used to watch Steenrod tie at her fathers resort when she was a child, she probably was on hand when he came up with the Hendrickson. I can not think of any tiers who were more responsible for the “Catskill Style” than Cross or Steenrod and in turn Winnie and Walt Dette. Sure there were great tiers who followed and or were contemporaries of Walt and Winnie , but there is a direct line from the start to the Dettes , whose shop is in it’s 9th decade still tying the patterns virtually the same for all these years.
Art Flick was a deciple of Preston Jennings who lived in New Jersey. Jennings would spend a lot of time at Art Flicks fathers Inn ,which was handed down to Art,on the Schoolharie River (?)
Art started his work with Jennings in the mid 30’s. There is no question of Flick’s contribution to Fly fishing and the Catskill school of tying. He came later.
Fran Betters is from the Adirondaks and flies tied in that region tend to be more “western” in design.
The Dette proportions are based on the foundation of what we believe the “Catskill stlye” started from and have remained the same for over 3/4 of a century. Of course there are variations ,but this is where it started.
Take care,
Jim
Ps. I’m still waiting for you to join the IBF,
it’s a club that even Groucho would join. LOL
[url=http://www.Jimsflyco.com:0e8cf]www.Jimsflyco.com[/url:0e8cf]
Wow lotta good information from everyone. Really interesting stuff.
Jim could you tell me a little more about the dubbing method the Dette’s used? I talking about the way it is shown in thier book, does mary still dubb her flies this way? Can you explain it at all?
Thanks
Doug
I have a orgional Art Flick Red Quill and he did use the same proportions. He also did alot of over sized hackles that are 4 times the hook size on the Dette Gauge, but because of the lack of hackle that large most have now switched to 3 times.