I have a Dynaking vise that I can rotate but it is not a true rotary vise. Just curious what the advantage to the rotary would be. I am realativly new to tying and this vise has worked out well for me to this point but thinking of upgrading if there is a major advantage.
Thanks
TaG
“MAJOR”, advantage? Hmmmmm, well, I wouldn’t class a true rotary as having a major advantage, unless perhaps, you’re commercially tying .
But, the BASIC tying advantages, with many tiers is the smoothness that you can put down the copper wire, say, when winding it down the hook shank. Palmering hackle, on a Wooleybugger, wrapping tensil in a nice, clean, even, spiral is nice and easy with a rotary vise.
Instead of the “reaching over and bringing it back, under and then over and under again and again” approach to wrapping a hackle collar, just holding the hackle steady with one hand then merely rotating the vise jaws to get it on nice and even, is another plus of a rotary vise.
Depends, really, on your tying style and type of flies you like tying the most. A lot of tiers will say that they can do all the above, with a stationary jaws vise and no doubt they can and do it very well. I tied for 18 years on stationary jawed vises and never had a problem. Still do, on my saltwater flies.
But, I broke down and bought a rotary and love it, for what it is and what I use it for. For my 18 to 22 stuff, my tying improved, when I could see and handle the smaller flies easier in a rotator. But, that’s just me.
I’d strongly suggest, that you hit the local shop and tie up a fly or nine on a true rotary vise, then see what you think and IF it’s worth upgrading to!?!
Just my $1.00 w/ .98 change
Ther is no major advantage of a rotary vise except it does give you the ability to tie flies just a little faster. However, I have a rotary and really do not use the feature except to turn the fly and look at the other side. I tie classic wet flies and Salmon flies so a rotary does not really come into use. Honestly good tying skills and tying a fly almost every day will increase your speed and not to mention increase the looks of your flies. If you are very satisfied with your vise right now, why change. Every now and then I will tye on my old Thompson model A vise, the flies get tied fast, look good and that’s all that matters. Now if your into wanting a new vise, then look at a Renzetti or Dynaking Barracuda. Don’t listen to any one about the brand. Go and look at it yourself and place a few hooks in it and see if it is for you. The two brands I mentioned are the best brands when it comes to rotary, quality and will stand up to the test of time. Buying a vise is like buying a car, Ford vs Chevy and so on. The only brand that’s right is the one you finally feel the best with. In closing, try before you buy.
Fontinalis
Since I don’t pay attention to brands other than what I have or had…I don’t know if Dynaking is rotary or not but you used different terms…
Are you asking about non rotary vs rotary
Or are you asking about non rotary vs rotary vs true rotary?
Take-A-Gander -
Take a gander at the previous discussion started by Wheatworth a while back.
Take a gander at the nor-vise.
John
TaG,
There are very few flies that you can tie on a true rotary vise that you can’t tie on a ‘standard’ non rotary vise.
There are many things that you can do ‘easier’ on a true rotary vise than you can on a standard, non rotary vise.
There are no flies that you can tie on a ‘non rotary’ standard vise that you can’t tie on a true rotary vise.
Does anyone ‘need’ a rotary vise? Nope, not even the commercial tyers ‘need’ one.
You can tie flies fast and well without it.
The rotary feature is nice, however. It can speed you up. It does make some things ‘easier’ to do, or make it easier to do them better.
What sold it for me is that fly tying is a ‘hobby’ of mine. I don’t do it for the money, either to ‘save’ it (THAT is a real joke…), nor to ‘sell’ flies. I tie flies because I like to do it. It gives me pleasure both to tie flies and then to catch fish on flies I’ve tied.
I tied flies for years with a selection of non rotary vises. But, I really like neat tools. I really like quality tools. I enjoy using them, making them function in a way that lets me show some degree of craftmanship.
I spend a lot of time tying flies. So, I decided that I deserved to have a high quality rotary vise to do this with. I didn’t need it. The first several thousand flies I tied, I used a bench vise and a set of vise grip pliers to hold the hook. Worked fine. But, I wanted a ‘good’ vise, and I finally decided to quit being cheap (a fault I posess in no small degree) and buy myself one. I wanted a vise that would be all I’d ever need, no more ‘upgrading’ in small increments. I’d done this long enough to ‘know’ exactly what I wanted in a vise, I was at a point where I could afford one, and I got one.
No regrets. I’d not now go back to a standard non rotary vise. I’m sure I could still tie on one, but I see no reason to. So far, it’s been worth every penny I paid for it, and then some. I really enjoy tying on it.
Up to you, of course. But you seldom regret getting the best you can afford.
Buddy
I have tied on both styles and greatly prefer the rotary vise. I disagree with Fontinalis saying that since he ties salmon flies he doesn’t have use for one. Salmon flies still have floss bodies, tinsel tags and ribbing. Some have spey hackle and/or dubbed thoraxes. The smoothness and even-ness of the wraps for all of these is improved with a rotary vise.
However one notion not yet mentioned but only implied is that the material being wound on the hook will be twisted less and in the case of hackle will break less. With a stationary vise the material is changed from hand to hand with every wrap. Thus the tension is constantly changing and there is an opportunity for the material to twist - particularly with thread and floss. This doesn’t happen with a rotary vise. Due to the lack of fear of material breakage or twisting it is REALLY easy to UNWIND a poorly applied material and do it better.
I think the idea the rotary vises are faster only applies to flies with lots of easy palmering like a WB. In general I just find the flies are better and the frustration level reduced.
I use a both a Renzetti true rotary and a Dyna-King ‘rotary’ pretty much interchangeably for my tying.
I like the tension control I get with the Renzetti when I’m hackling - especially palmering, ribbing, winding floss, etc. I think consistent tension is a real plus when using 8/0 and smaller threads.
I find the Dyna-King more comfortable to use for positioning wings and tails because my hand rests nicely on the shaft. I think being comfortable helps make better flies - especially after a couple hours at the bench.
Bottom line, be sure to tie a few flies on a true rotary before you invest - it isn’t an essential tool and you are the only one who can know if it’s worth the cost.
Buddy -
What brand / model of rotary do you have ??
John
John,
I called Dyna King and had them put one together with the features I wanted.
Basically it’s the ‘Ron Abbey’ signature model.
Buddy
Hey there Gander, My opinion is “no big advantage over what you have”
Dyna king is a pretty good vise. I used one that belongs to a friend of mine, actually a tying instructor, and found it to be quite good, and held the hook tight enough to bend it. I learned to tie about 37 years ago on the cheapest stationary vise Herter’s sold, and thied thousands of flies with it. I then was given a hand made true rotary vise which I never really got the hang of using as a rotary. I just used it to see the other side of the fly. I got away from tying for a few years, and at that time lost both those vises. When I got back into it, I built my own vise, much like a classic Thompson stationary model, but with a cam lock that allows me to rotate the fly to see the other side. When I look at the high end rotaries and all that, I often think maybe I want a new vise, but the truth is, I like tying on a stationary, and I do just fine with it. The vise I have holds the hook tight enough to twist it in two without it coming loose, and since I built it, if anything ever happens to it, I can certainly repair it, or build another. And, as has already been said here, there’s nothing really determining the advantages or disadvantages of any quality functional vise over another,…except your own personal preference. You’ve already gotten the best of all advise…try some out, and see what you think of them. Most any fly shop, or tying tool shop will gladly let you try some of their stuff. One of the best things I ever did was to take a fly tying class three years ago, even though I had been tying for years and years. I met a few other tyers, much like myself who’d been at it a long time, and we all picked up some great new tips and skills. Also got to try out maybe ten different vises, and various other tools. Also got to do some practice casting with the instructor’s collection of over twenty high end fly rods from a 1wt. to a big old 12 wt. It was a class offered by our local parks and recreation department, and it was great. two classes a week for 6 weeks for $60 !!
no way to beat that…Happy tyin’…ModocDan
TaG,
Before making a change, consider buying Rotary Tying Techniques by Al Beatty. Al is a sponsor here. Its about $20 and a great way to see various techniques used with an in-line vice. Here is a link to the catalog page. http://www.btsflyfishing.com/catalog/pag14-15.htm It’s down the page a bit.
Greg H. To use a rotary funtion on tying classic Salmon flies and my classic wet flies in garbage. Show quality flies with floss bodies do not come out that great on rotary vises. Also you have better material control by using your hands. Poul Jorgensen, Ron Alcot, Radencich all use their hands exclusively for making floss bodies as well as palmering hackle. My mentor Don Bastian for the past ten years that I have been with him only uses his hands for such work on classic wet flies. I have experimented using the rotary vise for these marterials and was not satisfied at all on the looks of the fly. I beleive and will always believe that good material handling techniques along with good tying skills and a few tricks will always beet a rotary tied fly on appearance any day of the week.
Respectfully Submitted
Fontinalis AKA: Andy B
Only if the materials are prepared correctly. a very experienced tyer can tie on a stationary vise and get the same results as a rotary.
Youre kidding? How does using a rotary vs stationary prevent you from breaking a hackle stem???
disagree. if i’m tying floss bodies, i am stroking the floss (don bastian method) so that the fibers are always perpendicular to the hooks shank and maintaining tension as i wrap. the floss wraps smoothly and doesnt twist. and thats with using a rotary vise but in a stationary position.
You will hear both sides on the issue as posted above. In one person’s hands rotary is better, in another, stationary is better. You do have a good stationary vise - I am not sure that I would switch without a more compelling reason, like my vise broke.
I learned on cheap stationary vises and then got a Danvise - which is an inexpensive full rotary vise. I began tying stationary-style on the Danvise and gradually over the years learned and used the rotary features more and more. I personally would never buy a vise that was not full rotary - just because I am used to it and its versatility. Not saying it cannot be done and maybe better with a stationary.
My point was going to be that I am not sure just trying a rotary vise will be very enlightening - unless you barrow one and give it several weeks. Even that may not be enough time to begin seeing the advantages. Maybe that rotary-technique video mentioned will be the ticket, I have heard that it is good. Need to look at the myself.
s
It’s all a matter of personnal preference. I tied on a Thompson for years and finnaly got a chance to try a Renzetti Traveler and liked it. I don’t always use the rotary feature but it sure is nice to have it when I want it or need it. The vise just sits at the right height and angle for the way I tie. I have since added their parachute gallows and neutral background attachments along with the larger spinning knob so mine is really set up the way I like it. I am sure some would find it to be too much or cumbersome, but I put it together for me, not them. If you can, try a bunch of different vises to see what you like the best.
Thanks for all the repys!!
My Dyna King rotates but is not a true “rotary” vise. I am very happy with the quality and as stated earlier it is solid and will hold a hook so tight you can bend if you are not careful.
I do have some stuggles with getting copper wrapped even and tight with my current set up but not enough to abandon my current set up. I am thinking I just need a little more work on my technique.
Thanks
TaG
You’ll get passionate responses on both sides of this issue. All I can add is…
GRIFFIN RULES!
I have a Griffin Montana Mongoose, and wouldn’t go back to a Thompson for anything. Rotary Vises can make you a better Fly-Tyer. Your flies will be neater and better constructed.
Tag, try the suggestion about holding the wire at the top of the fly not the side. It helps you control where it goes on the hook shaft much better. That goes for anything you are ribbing with.
Normand,
All of the benfits of a rotary vice don’t make a fly ‘better’ or even ‘look better’ (whether that matters is up to the fish).
A very experienced tyer can get the same results in his hands, or with a pair of vice grips. What is also true is that a very experienced tyer can get excellent results with a rotary vise. It’s the experience of the tyer, not the vise used, that will determine such things.
For things wrapped around a hook shank, the rotary can make it easier and come out more even for less experienced tyers, and come out faster with the same quality level for the experts.
I’m certain that if the ‘rotary’ vise was the industry standard fifty years ago, many of the accomplished tyers of fancy show flies would be using them now. That they learned to do what they do on a stationary vise is a large reason why many believe that somehow you can only do it that way. That’s just not true, and a fly tied on a rotary is not inferior to one tied on a stationary vise. The techniques are just different.
You are curious how it becomes harder to break a hackle stem when using a rotary vise? When changing hands, many folks have difficulty maintaining the same tension from hand to hand, and also from different angles. Newer tyers seem to pull too hard when doing the exchange and when wrapping downwards. A rotary lets you hold the hackle in one direction and at one tension. It’s simple. Does that mean that hackled flies tied with a rotary are better? Nope. Just easier for some folks.
As far as the ‘twisting’ of materials, the truth is that the normal motion of wrapping a material around a hook with a bobbin will add a ‘twist’ to the material with each rotation. You have learned how to manipulate your materials so that it doens’t happen. That’s fine if you want to take the time to do so. Many folks don’t really care all that much about things like stroking the materials back carefully, or twistng the bobbin as they wrap to keep the twist out of the materials. A rotary lets them ‘wind’ the materials on the hook evenly and without additional twist.
That you can accomplish this without benefit of a rotary doesn’t mean that the rotary is not neccessary. Just that you wanted to learn a certain skill. You prefer to use your expertise and not use a rotary vise for that. Others may want to do so. Nothing wrong with either approach.
A rotary vise is a tool. It has features that make it different from a stationary vise. Some of us use and really appreciate these features. Others don’t care much about them.
There are lots of folks out there who really only care about producing fishable flies in an efficient manner. Many of them are not expert at it (luckily, the fish really don’t care). For lots of these folks, a rotary vise will let them produce more flies in a shorter period of time. For others who just enjoy neat tools, a good rotary will give the same kind of satisfaction many get from owning and using a fine fly rod, drinking a good bottle of wine, or driving a quality auto.
It is a choice. No right or wrong way to do this.
Good Luck!
Buddy