It seems to me I have seen fishermen critized for using too light of a rod for the size fish they are pursuing, but the same people seem to find it acceptable to use whatever weight line they deem necessary to best present and hook the fish they are after. It seems to me that I can land most fish as quickly using my 3 wt. rod and a 4 lb. tippet as I can on my 5 wt. or 6 wt. rod using the same tippet. I would like to see an intelligent discussion along these lines.
Uncle Jesse,
I fish 3 weights up to 9 weights, naturally depending upon the type of fish and size I will be going for. I have a philosophy of ‘It is better to use a rod slightly heavier than to use a rod that is slightly lighter’ for the intended target. I Catch & Release all fish. Because of that I do not want to place any undue stress upon the fish I catch. I really enjoy the cast and the take and the initial feel of the hook-up. Then all I want to do is get the fish in and released as soon as possible.
I know of people who fish for salmon with 5 weight rods, and I really don’t like to see that. They spend an far too much time in fighting the fish, which causes an excessive amount of strain on the fish and could possibly cause the fish to die. That would be a shame.
Another factor is if there are two of you in a boat and a fish is caught on an outfit that is too light, then all that extra time that person is using to get the fish to the boat means that the other person can not fish, so you are taking away fishing time from your partner. That isn’t nice at all.
So for trout in the western rivers I use 5 weights and 6 weights. For pocket waters in small streams I use 3 and 4 weights. For panfish I use 3 to 5 weights. For bass and salmon I use 7 to 9 weights. Get the hook-up, get the fish in and release it ASAP.
Larry —sagefisher—
Maybe I did not state my thoughts well. My thinking is the quickness with which you can land a fish depends as much upon the line strength as the weight of the rod. I would like to hear yeas and nays on that thought.
I think I agree with that, UJ. It seems to me the strength of the tippet dictates how aggressive I am when playing the fish…and of course the size/strength of the fish.
Of course leader and tippet line matter, just as rod weight matters. All else being equal, heavier the rod and/or heavier the tippet/leader, the more pressure you can put on the fish. There are those who believe that the lighter rod is better, but what it comes down to is they prefer the fight, and there really is not point in an “intelligent” discussion because they’ve already made up their mind. Same is true for the tippet/leader debate, although here they debate is clouded by the desire to actually catch a fish, as opposed to just landing one. One distinction is if you use too light a leader/tippet, the fish can get away, whereas if you use too light a rod, you increase the fatality rate of the catch. Neither are defensible points IMHO, but some like to make the distinction. It really is just a matter of physics, but many would rather reduce it to subjective terms to justify their own preferences. This is one of those really odd sort of debates where reason rarely ever wins…
While I agree with Duckster & UJ that the strength of the tippet is the key factor in fighting the fish. I also believe that regardless of the weight of the tippet if the rod is a light weight job the angler has a tendency to prolong the battle, perhaps with an unconscious feeling that horsing the fish will cause damage to the equipment or breakage of the tippet.
As a general rule, you should use as heavy (or strong) a leader as you can without spooking the fish or impairing the action of the fly. I.e. it would be unwise to use a 1 X leader on a #18 trico. But it would be wise to use that size for browns at night on a #2 muddler. There is a subset of anglers that prefer to use overly light tackle on fish for a plethora of reasons but normally fishermen size their tippets to work well with the fly they are fishing and the water type and whether the fish are leader shy. That being said, the size of the fly dictates the size of the tippet and the size of the flyline and then the size of the rod - in that order. But that is in a perfect world.
Now how big a rod you need to fight a fish with is a much more complex matter. Most people don’t know that a normal 5X leader will break a 6 wt. rod if you candycane it. The angle of the rod butt to the fish is a very important factor when playing a fish. If you point the rod straight at the fish you can apply force up to the limit of the line but you can’t absorb any shock if the fish does something drastic. It you were to put the butt at 90 degrees to the fish, you can apply far less force on the tippet (short of breaking the rod) but you can absorb a lot of shock from violent movements at the other end of the line. Most anglers playing big fish will use that angle to adjust their rod characteristics without even knowing they are doing it.
Now dry fly fishing, I would agree that there isn’t mich difference in the fish landing capability between a 3 and a 6 wt. with normal dry fly tippets. Maybe a little, but not much. Both will allow you to go to the limit of the tippet by just adjusting your rod angle. But you put a 20 pound fresh run salmon or a 70 pound tarpon with a 15 or 20 pount tippet on that 3 weight and you will learn why people use 8 through 12 weight rods for that sort of thing. The heavier rods and heavier tippets allow you to put more force on the fish while still maintaining some bend in the rod for absorbing shock when they decide to do a quick change in the direction thing.
I use a 3 or 4 weight on small creeks because I don’t need distance and they are fun to fish with. I’ll use a 6 if I am planning on fishing on into the dark and switching over for big brownd. I use a seven on steelhead. I use an 8 on salmon and an 8 or nine on snook or reds. The bigger rod for snook is mainly because you have to throw a 2/0 EP out there nearly 80 feet just to keep from spooking them with the boat. I’ll use a 6 on the beach for the same fish where you are fishg to them right in front of you.
My $.02
Bob
It all doesn’t matter. It is all about the tippet. You will actually probably bring to net more fish with the lighter rod. Not breaking off the fish with a hook in him. And you CAN land the fish just as fast.
The tippet is going to break no matter which rod you use…if you get to the break point of that material. I do not use an extra light rod to fish for trout. But I can put just as much pressure on a 6x tippet with a 3wt as you can with a 6wt. And THAT pressure will break the tippet at some point.
I do not see how you can put more pressure on the same tippet material and bring to net a fish faster with a bigger rod…than…
using the same tippet with a smaller rod. When the tippet is 3lb tippet and gets to its break point it will break. And it doesn’t matter if it’s a broomstick or a willow switch.
The weakest link determines how hard you can pull on the fish. Usually, that is the tippet. If it isn’t, then you’re not set up correctly.
When the tippet is your weakest link, the rod is a shock absorber, not a hauler. Two five weights, one glass and one super-fast graphite will both be able to land all of the same fish in the same amount of time, if used properly. For that matter, as long as your tippet is the weak link, any two rods will be able to bring fish to hand in the same amount of time, provided you know how to use the shock absorber in your hand.
For the most part, the heavier the rod, the greater the load the rod can handle. Thus you can pull harder with a heavier rod than a lighter one. The difference isn’t as great when comparing how you might pull on a 3lb trout with 5x tippet on a 3wt vs 5wt rod. When pulling on a 25lb yellowfin tuna with 20lb tippet and a 10 vs 12wt rod the difference is significant and a competent angler will bring that 25lb fish to the boat faster with the heavier rods. If you are going to release that fish it is probably better to whip it in 10-15 minutes with the 12 wt than 25-30 minutes with the 10wt.
You can always point the rod right at the fish and take the rod out of the equation, but at some point you need to put a bend in the rod. The heavier rod will generally allow you to pull harder. If you can pull hard enough to break the tippet with both rods then a skilled angler should be able to bring a fish to hand as quickly with either rod under most conditions.
As I said before, that rod angle thing is important. The tippet is not necessarily the weak point in the equation. This is especially true if you are using a low modulus rod such as glass or bamboo. If you think the tippet is always the weak point, try picking up a 4 pound weight tied to the tip of your favorite 6 wt. rod. Rod angle is important. And a heavier rod will allow you to put a greater load on the tippet with a bend in the rod than will a lighter one.
You can also cast further with a heavier line and a heavier rod.
Just to throw another stick on the fire, has anyone thought of how rod action rather than weight might affect the equation. A softer action rod should allow you to put more pressure on the fish, even with a lighter tippet, as the extra spring in the rod will help absorb additional shocks (such as a strong fish making a sudden unexpected run). Just a thought.
I’m going to agree with the point that I think Bob is making by saying that, all other things being equal, the lighter rod becomes the liability fairly quickly. I’ve always remembered a point that was demonstrated to a group of us by a casting instructor when I was first starting out. He tied a thick leather ring onto the end of his leader/tippet and handed me one of those boga grips with a scale in the handle. I was the biggest guy in the class, so I was selected to exaggerate the notion of a heavy fish on the end of the line. I gripped the leather ring with the boga, the instructer backed up a little ways and proceeded to lean into and bend the rod from every angle imaginable, including any number of them that I wouldn’t have attempted for fear of snapping the rod. I can’t remember the exact numbers anymore, but I can remember how nearly impossible it was to register even 2 pounds of pressure on the scale. While some might make credible arguments about also needing to guard against sudden strain from head shakes, underwater obstructions, etc., the point is, we seldom approach the breaking strength of our tippet from the pressure we exert on the fish.
So, to your question, I would argue that if we’re unlikely to strain the limits of either of the hypothetical tippet sizes anyway, the rod quickly becomes the difference maker, in that a lighter rod likely translates into less leverage that can be brought to bear. Even if we throw any fears of breakage out the window, I’m sure we all agree that we can’t exert as much leverage to turn the fish and/or bring him to net quickly with a 3 wt. than we can with a 4 or 5 of the same model. I’m not interested in the Bill Dance, horse 'em in method any more than the next guy, but I refuse to be one of those guys that I see majestically playing fish to exhaustion either. All other things being equal, I’ll always err on the side of the slightly heavier rod.
Edited for a more succinct way to illustrate the point: Take the experiment above, with the instructor using a 3 wt. rod and 5 wt. rod of the same model and length, both terminating in 5X tippet. I’d bet that neither rod could even come close to the 5 lb. break strength of the tippet, but would also bet that the 5 wt rod would register, relatively speaking, a much greater amount of pull.
Yup. What John said. Nice post.
Bob
I agree with you.
Unless we’re talking about extremes, the tippet is going to be the weak link and break before the rod. So you can put as much pressure on a fish with 4x and a 3wt rod as you can with the same tippet and a 6 wt rod.
Of course, this is probably a theoretical conclusion and the reality will also depend on the technique of the fisherperson.
Oh I am sure I’ll get grief on this one but… For a few select brookie creeks where a 9" fish is a big one and a few creeks that are full of sunfish, I fish a 00 weight. Yup 2 sizes below a 1 weight. Really out of necessity, these waters are very shallow and very clear. A 3 weight sends them for cover, the 00 does not. That said though, I take no longer to play these fish (or the odd smallmouth in both instances) that I would take on a 4, 6 or even 8 weight. I use 4 or 5x tippet as a norm and really can lean into these guys if needed because the rod is so soft. They are all tools and if used in the right situations, you can’t go too light or heavy. Need to use the rod that fits.
I hear all these ‘theories’ about how much pressure you can put on a fish with a ‘heavier’ rod.
Rod angles. Lifting weights. Stiffer, softer…
I’ve been the ‘instructor’ showing that you can’t put all that much pressure on a fish with a flexed rod…not a fly rod, bass tackle. Even the heaviest baitcasting rod has trouble registering 5# on a scale…Try to ‘lift’ a two pound weight off the floor with a flippingstick…I’ve broken a couple doing it…but bass fishermen regularly break off fish with 10 to 15 pound line…how does that ‘happen’??? Angler error, poor fish fighting skills, bad knots…lucky fish? Who knows, but it does happen. With the ‘can’t pull five pounds’ argument, it shouldn’t happen. Given that argument, the rod should break…but that seldom occurs. If you can’t pull 2 pounds with your fly rod, how do so many fly anglers have fish breaking off on 5X or 6X tippet when that tests more than 2 pounds?
Because the test is flawed…you don’t just apply pressure to fish by ‘flexing’ the rod. The ‘flex’ is there to protect the tippet. You apply pressure to the fish by pulling on it. Rod flex does a little of it, but most is done by pulling with the LINE, not ‘bending’ the rod.
Remember your other hand? The one pulling in the fish (or cranking the reel handle if you choose that method)?
This is just simple physics, as long as the following ‘givens’ are in effect…
First given: That the angler knows how to apply pressure to the fish to the reasonable limits of his tackle.
Second given: That the angler is intelligent enough, or cares enough about his tackle, to only use tippet that he can break with the rod (not rod fully flexed, smart anglers do not do that to a fly rod).
Third given: That the angler is skilled enough to kno how to properly play and land the fish.
With those ‘givens’ the ONLY thing that governs how much pressure you can put on a fish is the strength of the tippet. The amount of pressure you can put on a fish is what determines how fast you can land it. Rod designations like ‘weight’ are irrelevant, as is rod action or length.
I can easily break 5X tippet with my 3 wt… Thus I can land any fish just as fast with this size tippet on a 3 wt. as you can with a 6 wt. rod using the same tippet. You can’t ‘pull harder’ than the breaking strength of the tippet, regardless of the rod weight.
Now, I understand that many anglers don’t take the time to learn the limits of their tackle, or how to put the maximum presure on a fish. But that’s not the issue here. We all should learn as we progress in this sport. Using heavy tackle in place of skill is not how you do that.
Buddy
Ditto what Buddy said. I use the heaviest tippet that i can get away with, in the given situation. I fish for trout 99% of the time , and by using rod angle and running the fish down if i have to , i try to land and release in about a minute. i release 100% of my fish , it puts less stress on the fish, especially in the summer months
I agree with Buddy & flybugpa. I also tend to use the heaviest tippet I can get away with and then try to use my rod to keep the fish off balance so I can land it as quickly as possible. Most of the time I land the fish within a minute or two where it’s a nice bass, trout, bluegill or whatever else I have on the line.
… but the things that seem to be missing in this discussion are what the fish is doing and the fact the angler and the fish are often in a dynamic situation. Seems like almost all the forgoing discussion has been based on only what the angler does and a lot of comments that are based on static situations.
I don’t know the science or the answer, but I do know that if you are stripping a streamer tied to a fresh 2X 10# tippet through moving water and a 4-5-6 pound trout hits it at just the right moment, it will break that tippet on the hit. Between the strip and the hit, a dynamic situation, there is more than 10 pounds of force on the tippet and your fly goes for a ride. ( The same thing can happen when you have to put the brakes on a big fish to keep it from running someplace you don’t want it to go. You hit the brakes at just the wrong moment and that fish is gone with the fly and some amount of heavy duty tippet. )
Take the same 4-5-6 pound trout sipping a dry fly fished off 5X or maybe even 6X tippet off very soft or still water and then just running around in relatively calm water. In that nearly static situation even a relatively unskilled angler ( that would be me ) will more likely land it than lose it, and fairly quickly if that is his / her intent.
Or … maybe it is just me ??:oops:
John