Orvis does it again

Gear & Reviews
1

I thought this is pretty big:

Orvis has just pulled the curtain up on their new lineup of rods for 2010: the Hydros . Perhaps sensing that the economy is not quite what it once was, the boys from Manchester have made a series of very good decisions to essentially bring the popular Helios into reach of the masses. The new rods will cost $495 for all freshwater models and $525 for all saltwater models. They are going to be available in every weight class that Helios comes in, with the exception of the switch rods. According to Orvis’ Tom Rosenbauer, they’re built on the exact same tapering and scrim technology as the Helios rods, with many of the exact same mandrels used as forms.

How has Orvis managed to cut almost $200 off the price? By eliminating a lot of the Ferrari-level jewelry (bringing this baby more into the Cadillac class). The Hydros rods will not sport REC’s Recoil guides (the flexible, bounce-back ones), nor will they have as light a reel seat. The male ends of the ferrules are unpainted (actually a feature, not a bug–unpainted ferrules seat more securely). The rods will come with a traditional Cordura-covered tube rather than a woven graphite model. Due to the hardware changes, the rods will be slightly heavier–more akin to the premium models offered by other companies. Interestingly, they will be available October 15; well in time for Christmas.

In short, to offer a little editorial, this is still a premium rod. Orvis seems to be filling in a gap in their lineup, offering a $500-class rod with very similar hardware to that offered by other companies, but building on what they believe to be a great blank design (and from what I’ve heard about Helios sales, the market certainly agrees on that blank). All in all this is a very intelligent move; rather than pushing the price envelope ever further, they are consolidating technological advances and putting more rods in more hands.

2

zach mathews article is here :wink:

http://www.midcurrent.com/news/2009/09/zm-new-orvis-hydros-rods-for-2010.html

3

Sorry Zack. I did quote , but didn’t put the author. My Bad, just excited about the news.

4

Very informative–thanks for the heads-up.

5

Whenever I read or hear about the new and improved gear for the new year, the terms “sliced bread” and “marketing” come to mind. Convince us that we need new crap to replace the perfectly good old crap that we are currently using. Or in this case, not as good a crap as it could be but we realize that $700 crap is out of hand, possibly because we aren’t selling as much of it as we thought we could convince people they needed.

I like to think I am wise enough to know I don’t need a $500 rod. Even though there are a couple collecting dust in the closet.

I do own a knife which can be used to slice bread, however.

6

I look at it this way DG. It might not be you or me that buys that rod (or any other new and improved rod). It might be a young fly fisher that is ready to get a little bit better rod and reel because he might need one, wants one, can finally afford one, or has cast it and just fell in love with the way it performs. Who are we to judge (I’m not saying you’re judging anyone). If it didn’t come down to gimmicks, marketing and the best thing since sliced bread, then most of us would still be fishing bamboo or fiberglass. It’s the next phase of evolution for our sport.

7

I’m sure that these rods are great but I really haven’t been able to tell the difference in performance between 40 and 500$ rods in my years and years of fly fishin’. I HAVE noticed that graphite out-performs fibergoass, and that all of them tend to do really poorly against rocks, fire, and car doors…

But this is just my opinion. Heck, I’m happy fishin with a stck and and a bent needle with some duck feathers wrapped around it.

8

WOW, what a freaking marketing genius Orvis has!!! I Guess that ‘NEW Coke’ guy really gets around. Making a $500 rod and using the cheapest hardware? Now THATS a way make and sell an alleged quality product!

They must have saved a whopping TEN dollars in production cost by not using the ReCOIL guides on the $700 rod. And to think ReCOIL guides are not even the most expensive guides on the market.

10 min of research turned up this from MudHole.com. These are just the snake guides (no stripping guides) but it’s enough to show just how little the cost of guides affects the cost of a rod. And these are Retail prices, I’m sure a company like Orvis can buy from REC at a much cheaper price we can, but the ratio between guides should be about the same.

Consider this:
American Tackle----Stainless snakes $.59 to $.63 each, TiChrome $1.97 to $2.54 each (the range in ATC prices are for sizes 6 to 2/0)
Pacific Bay----Chrome $.95 each, TiChrome $2.95 each
ReCOIL----$2.28 each

Any rod builders should agree that the general rule of thumb is: Number of guides = rod length(in feet) + 1 (tip top extra) right? +/- a guide is personal preference for ferrule interference (think 3, 4 and 5 piece rods)

So a 9’ rod: tip top + 10 guides (1 or 2 of those 10 are strippers). So what? 8 snakes on a 9’ rod on average? If so, then:
ATC SS, 8 @ .59 = 4.72
ATC TiChrome,8 @ 1.97 = 15.75 to 8 @ 2.54 = 20.32
Pac Bay chrome 8 @ .95 = 7.60 to 8 @ 2.95 = 23.60
Or ReCOIL 8 @ 2.28 = 18.24

Hmmmm? Let see.
18.24 -vs- 4.72, save 13.52
18.24 -vs- 15.75, save 2.49
18.24 -vs- 20.32, spend 2.08 more
18.24 -vs- 7.60, save 10.64
18.24 -vs- 23.60 ,spend 5.36 more
On a $700 rod the cost difference of guides is so negligible the bean counters wouldn’t worry about it.

Oooooh and they didn’t paint the ferrule and saved another HUNDRED?? Are they buying their paint made for the ISS?? Here’s a thought! Maybe they should NOT paint the Orvis name and logo. THAT in itself adds TWO hundred to the retail. Now we’re down to a $199 rod. At that you can safely bet they STILL have a 50% profit margin.

Carbon fiber is carbon fiber. The only difference in carbon fiber scrim is the density (grams/meter^2), resin content and tightness of weave. In layman’s terms, this combination is what differentiates IM6, IM7, IM8 etc. Every blank producer has there own formula’s to produced their ‘unique’ product.

“…they’re built on the exact same tapering and scrim technology as the Helios rods, with many of the exact same mandrels used as forms.” WTF??? if all this is the same and they are only saving a FEW bucks on cheaper hardware? If this doesn’t tell you how that $700 rod was already SEVERAL hundred dollars overpriced you need to get back on your short yellow bus and go home!

9

I do feel that fiberglass, in certain conditions, is a better material than graphite…just my opinion.

bobbyg

10

I agree with Bass Bug. Good job BassBug-

11

Orvis makes inferior products in comparison to anything else in the same price range. Give me a break. Give me a low end Ross reel on a medium to low St Croix at well under half price of the Orvis combo and I have a much better set up than the walking Orvis billboard.

12

At the risk of getting flamed for liking the very high end Helios rods I’ll ad my $.02 worth to this what has become a debate.
(steps up to podium)
I own 3 Helios rods which cost me dearly but I decided they are worth it. The #1 reason for me was the weight savings over similar weight rods (meaning a 7 wt, 8 wt ect.) because at the end of a long day casting I do notice the difference. I had a member of the fly rod club give my 7 wt the wiggle test and she said it felt more like a 5 wt. The #2 reason is they just work and work great. I’m NOT saying I couldn’t cast and fish as well with another rod but I do cast and fish better with these rods than any others I own.
Great equipment won’t make a poor fly fisherman good but great equipment will make a good fly fisherman better. In the end it’s the man who makes a great fly fisher, not his equipment.
I applaud Orvis for making Helios technology more affordable.
(steps down from podium)

13

If you look at the price that other fly rod companies sell their top end made in America fly rods for, the Orvis Helios at $495 is a pretty good deal. Heck if the only difference between a $700 Helios and a $500 Helios is $20 in components I’d say the consumer is the winner here.

I for one think it’s great that a company that has become better known for it’s dog beds is making a fly rod as nice as the Helios in Vermont; a state not particularly well known for cheap labor and manufacturing.

No doubt it was a clever marketing strategy to introduce the Helios with a very high price tag and later sell it much cheaper with a few token downgrades in components. I bet Orvis will sell a ton of them.

14

Good for Orvis!
If Sage had done something like this, there would be no uproar. The Orvis bashing really gets old.

15

For years I prided myself on not spending over $50 TOTAL on rods in my entire life. Of course, I wasn’t counting a nice Sage that my good friend gave me at one point, the rod I used most of the time. I caught fish, and rarely found it neccessary to cast over about 40 or 50’ on the spring creeks I fished. I couldn’t for the life of me understand why anyone in their right mind would spend over $100 on a rod.

Then, one day, I had occasion to cast a certain Winston rod twice. My friend had just bought it and wanted me to try it. I couldn’t get that rod out of my mind for weeks. It became an obsession not unlike the one I’ve had for my wife all of these years. I finally broke down and went to my local shop and bought one. I paid full price, around $600. It was worth every penny.

I’ve never been happier fishing, and every time I take the rod out on the stream I marvel at all the things I can do efforlessly with it, and how perfect it always feels. I’ve never used another rod since buying it, and doubt I ever will. Like my wife, it suits me, and is the one rod for me. When you find that rod, it becomes ever so worth it. I had cast dozens of rods over the years, and they all worked fine, but this one rod was magic for me. So if you find yours, go for it. It may not be a Winston, it could be a Sage, Orvis, Lefty Kreh, St. Croix, bamboo, you name it. If it suits you, you’ll know.

Eric

16

For fear of getting bashed… I am a fan of new technology. I believe in it, and I support it. I haven’t graduated to the epic old **** (yet) that believes things aren’t nearly as good as they once were, or believe that the less I spend the smarter fly fisherman I am.

I like new technology. I like high end products that are worth the money. I’m envious of my friends new Abel Super8 and the amazing deal he got on his Sage Xi2. The Orvis helios is an amazing rod. I was a fan of the Zero G and I think the helios was just a small improvement. In my opinion if a person can get a Helios at 200 dollars less, but missing the $20 in recoil guides, they are getting a hell of a deal.

Is it smart marketing? absolutely. Is Orvis making a buck off the consumer? ABSOLUTELY, but so is every other company. I personally am really interested in this rod, and curious to how this rod performs.

17

…electric ?

Cheers,

MontanaMoose

18

From a branding point of view, this is a risky move. To advertise and even to say the $500 rod uses the same base rod meaterials and same tapers as the $700 rod with the only major difference being the hardware and some paint could backfire on them.

  1. it can cheapen the Helios brand (which is the crux of a lot of the comments here) and make the high end expensive rod less exclusive (anyone with $500 to spare can have one)

  2. it could ultimately cut into the profit margin and thus kill the Helios brand. Why would someone spend $700 on a Helios when he can have essentially the same thing minus a few cosmetic things for $500?

It would be like Ferrari producing a $50,000 car with the same engine, suspension and major components as their $200,000 car, just minus some of the hand stiched leather and less expensive dash cluster. They’re not going to do that and risk cheapening the Ferrari brand. Just like I seriously doubt if we’ll ever see a $30,000 Camry competition with a Rolls Royce logo on the grill.

I have nothing against Orvis and I’m sure their marketing folks did their consumer research homework but there is a risk to the Helios brand by doing this.

Jeff

19

DAniel, I believe you…I don’t agree, but I believe you.:wink:

Bass Bugs - The point here IS Orvis is trying to accomodate the people… has Sage, Winston, Scott, T&T…etc?
I just think this is cool of Orvis, just like the MATCHING the $250. I raised on an auction for Casting For Recovery.

20

They’re going to cheapen it themselves anyway because they come out with new brands of rods so often, so the cheapening isn’t the issue IMO. It will be obsolete or at least way back on the backburner after the next 3 come out.

I have nothing against Orvis, even own a few of their products, shirts, hats, bags, and one Clearwater reel. I just don’t think their stuff competes for the same coin.

I STRONGLY agree that other companies should make similar efforts however. I’d love to see St Croix sell me a Legend Elite for $200 less because they took $20 worth of jewelry off it. I think they call that a Legend Ultra though…not sure. I’ve never paid for anything costing more than the Avid…ever…any brand. I can land a hopper on a quarter with my Avid 3wt with little to no wind :slight_smile: