The Spring 2005 Orvis Catalog features a new Saltwater reel called the Vortex VO2. In the description of the reel it mentions a vast improvement to the drag. It also mentions why they needed this better drag:
Quote from page 33: “A Permit in a full run can spin a reel at 16,000 RPM, creating tremendous friction on a drag surface” End Quote.
Can this be true, or is it a typo? That would mean the handle of your reel would be spinning at a knuckle busting speed of 266 revolutions per second!
That is smokin’ Anyone else see that catalog? Anyone had a fish run like that? I’ve caught Makos on the fly and I’m not sure if my handle was spinning quite that fast…maybe it was?
Rich
[This message has been edited by flymaker2 (edited 13 February 2005).]
Let’s see . . . each revolution of the reel will put out a length of line equal to approximately 3.14 times the diameter of the reel (with line).
Because there are 12 inches in a foot, 5280 feet in a mile, and 60 minutes in an hour, the conversion of RPM to miles per hour (line speed) is about:
RPM x D x 0.003
where D is the reel diameter in inches. For 16,000 RPM, then, it appears that the line leaving the reel at a rate of nearly 200 miles per hour if the reel diameter is 4 inches.
Can permit swim 200 miles per hour?
Of course, I could have made a mistake in the math.
A couple of years ago the Orvis catalog had a similar speed for the bonefish. I converted the speed, similar method used by uptroutfishr, and came up with a similar ridiculous figure.
Hey, why let the facts interfere with good marketing or a lightheaded audience?
Faster than that if a larger spool. That is flyin! Some of the lake Michigan rainbows move pretty quick on the flats in fall and early winter. I don’t know if they go that fast but I broke a finger one year trying to palm the reel(the handle hit my knuckle)
1600 rpm
Assume we are at the core of a SA reel. 1" core = 1 rpm per 3.1" of line or 4 rpm per foot. 16000 rpm = 4000’ per minute or 240,000’ per hour. That = 50 mph. That would be 50 mph after a minimum 150 yd run. Hmmmm. Sounds like a bit much.
That is hard to believe. Even a bullet traveling at 10 times that speed slows down to a halt in a second or two in water. I don’t think anything, much less a fish, can travel that fast in water. Even if they could it would only be for a very, very short span. I also did a calculation. I couldn’t find data for Permit so I based it on the speed of a very fast fish, a Wahoo. The data source I used is fishbase.org. I was surprised to learn a Wahoo can, for a second or two, move at a burstspeed up to 47 MPH. This would mean a 3.5 inch spool would rotate at 4500 RPM (75 RPS), but only for a second or two. It would slow down after that initial burst. I believe this burst is used to catch their prey and may not happen when hooked and there is no reel drag to slow them down in this calculation. That’s pretty darn fast but I think the Orvis people may be exagerating a bit and they shouldn’t be implying that a fish can move at those speeds for a long distance while pulling against the drag.
Joe
[This message has been edited by flyfisherjoe (edited 13 February 2005).]
From the Orvis catalog, the smallest of the VO2 reels has a diameter of 3 11/16".
But, to be fair, their statement is that “A permit in full run can spin a reel at 16,000 rpm . . .”, which, as others have pointed out, can happen at 40 mph when the line is nearly all out on a .5in diameter reel.
Seems that they could have said 4,000 rpm, which would have been a more reasonable, and still impressive, statement.
[This message has been edited by uptroutfishr (edited 13 February 2005).]
…or, it could be a typo from the printer, faulty math formula, etc. Anyway; instead of na na na na na na na, I sent the post to Orvis for clarification.
I’ll post their reply when received.
Testicular fortitude is a wonderful thing; clears up so many misunderstandings!
Even a bullet traveling at 10 times that speed slows down to a halt in a second or two in water.
Yes Joe that’s true, but a bullet does not travel under it’s own power. The permit does. However, it does sound a bit excessive to me. Last I heard they have burts of speed in the 30mph range, but 50… I’m not sure about that.
FloridaFlyer, I guess I didn’t explain it too well. The purpose of my bullet example was to point out the resistance of water’s viscosity and it’s ability to take the energy away from an object traveling trough it. In a high viscosity fluid (water as compared to air) the surface area is a predominant factor. A bullet has very little surface area compared to a permit yet it can not travel very far through water without loosing all it’s energy.
Joe
[This message has been edited by flyfisherjoe (edited 14 February 2005).]
This is a great thread. If anybody wants to do the math on what a real reel that you would actually fish permit on would do that might be interesting for comparison. An Abel Super 10 has a diameter of 3.9 inches.
If it’s one heck of a permit and it’s stripped all of the line and backing off your reel then the functional diameter is much smaller, makes things a little more possible for the permit. He doesn’t have to go as fast to get high RPM, but he does have to work harder against the drag. I might get bored later and do some calculus with this one. . .
In Orvis’ defense (sortof), the real test of a drag would be when the line is nearly out, the fish takes off, and the reel is spinning as fast as it possibly could.
Whether the advertising department is pushing the limits of truth is one matter, but I wouldn’t think the diameter one would be looking at would be 1-1.5" or so? Right?
Anyone else see that catalog? Anyone had a fish run like that? I’ve caught Makos on the fly and I’m not sure if my handle was spinning quite that fast…maybe it was?