Attention John Scott and whoever wants to discuss this fly.
John,
I’ve had a few thoughts as you have gone through your journey with the FEB flies…and I start this thread to not interfere with the other threads.
What would you think of furling the abdomen larger when fishing the large salmon flies or even the goldens…given the size fat abdomens of especially the beast,Pteronarcys [i]californicus?
Do you get the Fly Tyer magazine? In the last issue there is an article entitled “The New Stone Age”…listing some 16 stonefly imitations …both dry and wet…dries mostly foam…the girdle bug or whatever you want to call it is even listed…
Do you know of a Deschutes guide …Norm Wood? A “Norm Wood Special” is mentioned in the article…it is a dry fly that was considered one of the best for the salmonfly hatch. I bring it up because he used a specially dyed calftail …tied down wing…as you and George mentioned in the other thread.
I’ve been thinking that your flies would be ideal to use some Norm Wood calftail…trying that color.
In the article the special is shown basically tied as a Stimulator which is not how Norm tied them…his were before the stimulator …but there is a similarity…{I sometimes wonder if Randall Kaufmann got the idea for the stimulator from Norm’s fly}…and his are more wing down than the illustration. Also they call the color pink but IMO it is not actually pink…
This pattern works, and works well. Especially with some brown rubber legs on it. I can’t even count the amount of fish I caught on this pattern. Not really sure about the original colors but the ones commercially tied work well too. If you need to alter the color is use a sharpie or die your own material. Try using a tied down wing or not, but with most of the current patterns you can spread the wing out to make it look more natural, or even post it and let it ride low. I’m not sure about the history behind this fly and who did exactly what. All I got to say is it works and I’m sure you can tie it in different colors and sizes and alter it what ever way you want. Just go catch some fish!!!
I did happen to see the article and pics in Fly Tyer yesterday morning at one of the local shops. Lots of interesting flies, and I am sure they work for folks who know how to fish them. I doubt that I could tie many of them, but that is another matter altogether.
I haven’t heard of nor seen the Norm Wood Special before, at least not that I recall. But it was only last year that I started paying much attention to the salmonfly and golden stone and hopper hatches and before that I wasn’t looking for patterns to fish those hatches. I really started paying attention last year because the various FEB flies worked so well for me from early summer to late fall.
Nothing against the Norm Wood Special and the author of the article, but like most presentations, it reads like a commercial with all the buzz words about flies and going from the secret fly of a reknown guide to the commercialization of his pattern. I guess that’s because it is a commercial. If he had given the recipe and tying instructions, and talked about the fundamentals of size, silhouette, action and color, I would have been more impressed. He did make a couple very good points - that the fact the Norm Wood Special rides very low is a big factor in its effectiveness and how the golden stone works as a hopper. ( Note my exchange with George the past couple days on my Montana Moments thread on the Fishing Reports Forum. )
Getting back to the FEB salmonfly. I have bulked up the abdomen of the salmonfly as an experiment by adding another strand of antron. The first thing that was obvious is that the material doesn’t furl nearly as well when I get beyond the three strands. That was more important when I was incorporating the tails than it is in the revised salmonfly pattern. I did fish the bulked up version one time last year and didn’t notice any difference in its success. I haven’t considered going back to four strands because the fly keeps working as is. Maybe it would do better ( i.e. fewer refusals ) over a sustained period with a bulkier body, maybe not.
As far as the FEB golden stone and hopper go - I think the three strand body is exactly right for the goldens and hoppers that I see where I fish. In some places, a larger hopper might be prefered, and I would hope anyone using the basic pattern would know to alter it to meet local conditions. I think in the FEB Hopper FOTW article I mentioned that it should upsize nicely.
If I had some of that calf tail to use for a wing, I would certainly give it a try based on your suggestion. But I don’t. And my sense of priorities in fly tying tells me that the wing material and color are the least important aspect of the fly so I’m not inclined to go buy more material for a limited purpose. I have thought about using one of the new synthetic winging materials, but kind of get into a “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” frame of mind when I think about that.
I have used the calftail wing on some Rogue Golden Stones and it worked very well on them too. I’m not sure if it’s any more effective than other wing materials but I like it.
They are excellent patterns…interesting article and website.
Most patterns evolve out of an attempt to catch fish on local waters. Some are originals in their own rights, while unknowingly similar to another pattern being put together by another fisherman states away or just in the next county. And some are modifications of another “almost right” fly for that particular water.
I tied the Satsop Stone nearly 20 years ago, for fishing the Satsop River in Wa State. It was a modification after studying the Stimulator & Birds Stone Dry…with some personal changes as well. Did it work better for that water than the original 2 patterns? You bet! Were they inspiration for that pattern? You bet!
I have always been amazed at how 2 anglers…on different coasts…can come up with nearly the same fly for their particular waters. That to me is even more fascinating than who actually tied a particular fly 1st. Three Caddis emergers, tied nearly identical by 3 different anglers in 3 different states…except for the wing materials. First one uses CDC…the 2nd uses snow shoe hare…the 3rd uses calf tail. All 3 named differently, and unkown to the others. is there a right or wrong pattern? Should they all be named the same? Or is it what’s unique about fly tying? I think the latter.
Thanks ducksterman, that answers how to get more of a downwing look to my P C’s…the squirrel tail i’ve been using just isn’t quite right, also i think i’ll try darkening the calftail partially to look more like the folded wings of the ovipositing female that seem to be at the head of the menu once the big trout start looking up.
A lot of patterns emerge from other patterns, an evolutionary process pursued by many fly tiers. Nothing wrong with that, and as you note, often the subsequent patterns are more effective than the predecessors.
There is another approach. I like to use these as my models for golden stones, with the emphasis on the fishies’ point of view.
What we see.
What the fish sees ( not including the wings ).
And for the salmonfly, these will do.
Our view.
Their view ( less the wings ).
The thing that intrigues me is how many patterns that bear no resemblence at all to the actual insects catch fish.
Recently, a fellow I know who has been fly fishing stonefly hatches for over 30 years and who is an excellent fly tier, commented to me that having looked closely at some of my pix of the fishies’s point of view of a salmonfly and a golden stone, he had to completely revise his thinking on how to tie them. It will be interesting to see what he comes up with when he goes from following patterns to following stoneflies.
It has always intrigued me that most of the salmonfly patterns are tied with orange bodies when the real ones are closer to a brown with orange highlights.
Probably redundant but here is a picture of three NWS’s I have saved for over 40 years. I never fished with Norm but was using guides in his era and those guides were copying his flies…guess it wasn’t as secretive as some thought…anyway these were tied by those guides…I didn’t tie then…you can see there is some variation in calf tail color…upper right is closest …and note the heads/thoraxes…whatever you want to call that part …is not palmered.
Sofa Pillow, Stimulators, even my Ocober Caddis (variation of Ron Lucua’s pattern) as well as the Norm Wood Special; would be hard to tell apart on the water. I believe it is more about the appearance of the fly pattern, than the pattern itself… I bet there are even more fly patterns under various names that are also almost indentical to the above mentioned patterns.
The question of which came first, the Chicken or the Egg, has finally found the definitive answer.
The egg came before the chicken, because that is the only way the egg can reproduce itself! ~Parnell
One advantage the Norm Wood Special might have over some other patterns is that it doesn’t float very well. It works best with the abdomen submerged. There is a great underwater picture in ‘Bugwater’ by Arlen Thomason of a struggling Sallmonfly. Its supported by its wing with its abdomen underwater.
I carry some Rogue style stones (higher floater) and some Norm Woods Specials. One of the two usually works.
