hi folks, yesterday, I drove 80 miles RT to my closest Orvis store in hopes of seeing, holding and possibly purchasing my first furled leader. It did not happen. As I understand f leaders, the advantages of using one are for strength, the ability to reuse the leader portion and the ability to change tippets easily. I fish primarily for trout, bass and panfish when we go to our cabin in WVa. However, when at our home outside of D.C. I fish for stripers and plan to fish for snakeheads in the POTOMAC. (We even have a tournament to catch snakeheads! Another story for that one…last week a fellow angler caught one that was 36in long and very hefty.) Any way, it is for heavy duty fishing that I am considering a furled leader for my 7-8 wt rod. I am assuming that such a leader would most likely have a small metal ring to attach the tippet…a long piece of 10-12 pound mono. Is this correct??? My sales person didn’t know what a furled leader is and said that a metal ring would deter the fish. I asked if their braided leaders were somewhat similar except that one is braided and the other furled. He didn’t know that either. Neither did he know what cree hackle is either.I gave up and came home. Therefore, KI am at the mercy of my fellow faolers to teach me about furled leaders. Be patient ! Gerri
Gerri; A furled leader made from 4 lb. test mono or fluorocarbon will have a break strength of 12 lbs. Which should handle your Stripers. A braided leader is hollow and will spray water a furled leader is not and like your fly line will lose the water on the back cast. A thread leader can be treated with flotant and does a great job presenting dry fly’s. PM your address and I’ll send you a couple.
gerri,
Jack makes a very nice Furled Leader and I would take him up on his offer.
Gerri not sure exactly what bugs you will be throwing but a micro swivel might be beneficial over a standard ring. The help reduce twisting that occurrs with some flies. The ring and swivel don’t detour the fish either. Fluorocarbon and mono leaders will be naturally stiffer than thread leaders with leaders made with mixtures to give a leader in between. People really seem to love these leaders.
Brandon
Hi Gerri,
I started furling my own leaders after buying Kathy Scotts DVD. I’m using 2 lb flouro and uni thread for my freshwater leaders to a ring. I’m using 4 lb flouro for my saltwater leaders looped to a three way size 10 swivel. I believe the breaking strength of the 4 lb is higher than 12 lbs though. I have broken off some shark in the surf on 14 lb tippet without a problem with the leader breaking. The swivel broke before any probems with my leader on my first set up. I wouldn’t worry about the swivel or the ring having any affect on the fish.
Beaver
At the risk of Hi Jacking this thread I must say Thanks Beaver!! We tie fly’s with shinny bead heads so why on earth would a small ring or swivel 4’ or more away bother a fish!!?? The more I read the more I agree with Lefty!!:mrgreen:
Gerri, Jack does a great job furling leaders, as do Kaboom, and moonlitflies, and Warren, and Beaver, and … bunches of folks around this place.
My take on breaking strength is somewhat different than Jack’s and more like Beaver’s. While it is true that 3 strands of 4# test furling material should have a collective unfurled breaking strength of 12#, my experience is that the furling process increases the breaking strength at the point where the tippet is connected, whether with a ring, swivel, or shorb loop.
Also, if the tippet is pulling exactly at the middle of the end of the tippet, ring, swivel, or shorb loop, half the “pull” of the tippet goes up one side of the point of connecton to the leader and half goes up the other side.
HUH ??!!
Now you are on the path. Enjoy.
John
Now that we have Hi Jacked this thread let me say that Kaboom1 has made some “Strain Gage” tests that tend to support John’s report.
Gerri, you have a lifetime supply of furled leaders on the way!!
Jack -
I’ve been doing strain tests on furled leaders for years. My latest one was yesterday.
My new fluoro nymph configuration has three strands of 2# test material passing through the tip ring. Unfurled, the breaking point of those three strands should be 6#.
Twice yesterday I had occasion to break off 2X 10# test tippet - once when a nymph snagged on some rather deep subsurface structure and once when I caught a tree with a dry fly on a backcast across a creek I couldn’t wade. Even given that the knots in the tippet at the tip ring and the eye of the fly reduce the breaking strength, certainly the tippet strength was greater than 6#. Interestingly, both times the tippet broke at the eye of the hook, not at the tip ring.
Anyway, just the latest in a series of furled leader strain tests. I think the major factor is the furling process itself, but keep in mind that test strength is determined by pulling on each end of one piece of material, but pulling at the exact center of a folded over piece of the same material is quite another thing.
For that reason, shorb loops should withstand considerably more strain than tip rings, because the “pull” is on six strands of material and you’ve divided the “pull” on those six strands at the end of the leader’s shorb loop by two.
John
If you get back to this thread, Jack, here’s something else for you to chew on. In the meantime, Brad and other leader furlers and those thinking about taking it up might get some mileage from this hijack.
While thinking about this whole “strain gauge” thing, it occured to me that breaking strength as applied to tippet material is expressed in terms of a tensile strength, which is basically the force with which a material can be stretched before it breaks.
But when a tip ring, swivel, or just plain tippet is positioned crosswise ( 90 degrees ) to the furled material at the tip end of the leader, we should be considering shear strength, which is basically how well a material withstands a force cutting across it before it separates.
So maybe some materials have a higher tensile strength than shear strength, or vice versa, so the “breaking strength” ( as tested by Brad’s strain gauge ) of two leaders furled from materials with the same tensile strength and different shear strengths would be different.
This kind of ties into my earlier comments about the “multiplier” effect of the furling process, which I previously only thought of in terms of tensile strength. But it seems very likely to me that the furling process would also multiply the shear strenght of the material used.
Here’s an experiment that tends to demonstrate principle. Take three pieces of your standard 8"x10" writing or printer paper and tear them in half. Quite easy to do, right ??
Now take three pieces of the same paper and twist them lengthwise tightly. Now try to tear across the twisted paper. Not quite so easy.
So we have another possible explanation for why some furled leaders have a breaking strength greater than the collective ( tensile ) breaking strength of the material used. And some might have a lower breaking strength.
Having said all that, I’m now headed out to do some fishing.
John
John; Now you’ve got me thinking (and it hurts!!)!! The leaders Brad tested that had Shorb loops were stronger than the ones with tippet rings.
May I ask how much difference in test were the two?
Thanks,
Jeff
Jeff; One was made from 7X tippet rated at 3.1 lbs. w/tippet ring. It broke around 8.5 lbs. One made from 6X tippet rated at 4 lbs. w/Shorb loop went to over 13 lbs. with out braking. Another one was 4 lb. test mono with a Shorb loop that went over 12 lb. without breaking. Have to do some more testing for sure.
Jack, etal, I will retire to the Dungeon and make a couple of leaders with Schorb loops and a couple with rings and see what happens. I can tell you that the rings I use are very strong. I have tested them by tying 2 pieces of 20# test mono to them and pulling with the force gauge. In all tests, the 20# mono broke before the ring. I never did break a ring…deformed a few, but never broke. The mono broke in the mono itself, not the knot, and at least at 20# of force.
The only reason I decided to get a force gauge and test the leaders is that my customers were wanting to know the breaking strength of the leaders I make. I can tell you that I have tested several other people’s leaders and they over estimate the strength of their leaders. But if it works for them and they are happy, happy, that is all that matters.
Brad
Sorry for the delay, finally found time to destroy a couple of leaders.
Made 2 with rings and 2 with Shorb Loops on the tippet end. The Shorb Loop leaders broke at 8.5 and 9 pounds of force. The ringed leaders broke at 12 and 13 pounds of force.
My standard thread was used for the test…the same thing that I make all my thread leaders with. Leader length was 5 feet…again a standard length that I make, use and sell.
Is this a scientific test? NO!! Many more leaders will have to be tested before I or anyone can come to a concrete conclusion. My theory is that a Schorb loop puts a direct strain on the 3 strands of thread and the Larks Head Knot used to attach the ring protects the 3 strands. Again, this is only a theory, more testing will have to be done.
Brad
Brad what’s breaking strength per strand of thread and was it 1.5 loops at the tip end?
Brandon
I use Mercerized Cotton Sewing Thread for my Furled Leaders, cotton is strong and will last…
I have published on FAOL a couple of articles on my “Big Furled Leader Formulas” peg positions are calculated in inches and in centimeters… I have give CD’s to Members of FAOL who have asked for this CD.
I believe that cotton is the best product for doing Furled Leaders, the result is a a Furled Leader that is parabolic, and the leader has no hinge effect between the five segments of the furled leader…
Changing the slope of the taper of the furled leader can give you more at the butt or it can be move forward to the tip.
Anyone who does have one of my “Big Furled Leader Formula CD’s” have setup their own website using my CD as the model…
All you have to do is contact me at parnelli@comcast.net ; one will be in the U.S. Mail the next day (no charge for the CD or the mailing cost)
Parnelli
Brad -
Your initial test results are interesting, but could you provide a little more detail on just how the leaders broke ?? For example, on the Shorb loop leaders, did they break right at the tip, or come apart where the tip end threads form the Shorb Loop ?? Or somewhere else ??
On the leaders with the tip ring, I take it that the tip ring was not incorporated before the leader was furled. But added via the Larks Head Knot ( with which I am knot familiar ). Where was the breakage on those leaders - at the tip end where the threads go through the ring or at some part of the Larks Head Knot ??
Don’t want to sound like your ole buddy Frank, but the details on where the breakage occurred might shed some light on the tensile vs shear strength aspect of furled leaders.
John
Taking it back to the original post-'cuz I too am short of understanding. Is there a difference between “furled” and “twisted” leaders? The latter I am familiar with.