When balancing an empty reel to a rod, does anyone take into consideration the weight that line/backing will add? I want to take my rod into the store and try on some reels but wonder how much weight the line/backing adds to the equation. Is it negligible?
Sure, it’s less noticeable on the heavier weight reels, but still. I’m looking at a reel for a 9wt, between the Redington GD@5.8oz and the Pflueger Trion@7.7oz. Rod is 4.35oz.
Better yet, is there a ratio of reel to rod weight that you think is most comfortable for a 9’ rod? On my trout gear, the comfortable ratio seems to work out to about 3:4, where the rod weighs about 75% of the empty reel, on rods 8’-9’.
Thanks!
[This message has been edited by preast (edited 11 March 2005).]
Most new lines will come off of the spools without unwinding. Loop it over the butt of the rod and check your balance. Backing weight should be considerably less.
Pete
Also, do you ‘balance’ a rod/reel combo with the line through the guides?
How about with the line hanging off the tip and leading down to the level of the water (as it would be for 90% of the time while using it).
Or, with the rod supporting 30-50 feet of line, as it would be when casting?
What angle do your hold the rod at when ‘balancing’? Level? At the angle you use while fishing (sloped down? Sloped up?)?
All rod/reel combos are inherently unbalanced while fishing. You’d need a VERY heavy reel to come close to balancing even a 2 wt. with any line out past the tip (balancing without this is like balancing just the wheels on your car without the tires installed…). Your rod/reel is absolutely useless without line on it, and in the same state if the line isn’t ‘strung’ through the guides and hanging at least some distance past the tip.
I’ve NEVER seen a fully balanced fly rod set up (including the line out, which you HAVE to HAVE to fish with the rod). Can’t be done.
Buy the lightest weight reel you can get that holds the amount of backing you think you will need. Use that.
I have asked if a rod/reel needs to balance. The old timers here say no, the reel is just a thing to hold the line. I have heard this several times. I have always tried to balance mine. I am just fly fishing again after not for about 50 yrs. Used to fish for panfish alone and the rod I had then balanced. After much use I got pretty good with it. Casting fly lines over logs and dangling, bouncing off logs and rocks, under overhangs etc. Can’t do that now with my new 9’ 6wt graphite. Old one was a 6’ fiberglass with auto reel…I saved up pop bottles and bought it for $6.75. Anywhoooo I have wondered if an overweight reel would give you more balast and make it easier to cast long distance, and not get as tired during the day? I have asked this and been told you don’t cast with your wrist. I know. But I still think I want to hook one up that way, and then back to normal set up…and try to see the difference. Excess weight on the reel end sounds good to me. Any thoughts…since we talking about balancing rots to reels…etc?
Hello. I have an off subject question. I see a post like this and it peaks my interest. Then I ask a question of interest to me related to the topic. Is this improper? Should I save that question and post my own topic and not interfere with the original post? It is the post that got my mind going about something I have been interested in. Iffen I am outta line I apologize.
This talk of rod-and-reel balance reminds me of the fixation on balance in cutlery. Years ago I realized my two Chinese cleavers had blades about five times as heavy as the handles, although they are both full tang. At the opposite was my boning knife, with a handle outweighing the blade by a factor of two or three. I also figured out that a 6" chef’s knife comes with a handle about the same size as the handle of a 14’ chef’s knife, a result of our hands coming in a roughly standard size. At any rate, at least one of these chef’s knives will be about as balanced as a junkie’s checkbook.
Looking at the physics of it, even if we happened to have a knife with a center of gravity around the bolster (the blade-handle junction), it would only balance as long as we were not exerting pressure on the blade, that is, not cutting something. Start cutting, and the balance goes all to hell.
I have never asked a butcher, but I would guess they don’t worry about balance. I suspect it all stems from empty sales rhetoric aimed at amateurs. And my god, given a choice, who wouldn’t choose a balanced knife over an unbalanced one!
Vincent Marinaro, in his “In the Ring of the Rise,” wrote of a man smashing by a wide margin all distance casting records, including his own, by casting without a reel, with his line just coiled up on the ground. This was at a time when “…fishermen-writers discussed very learnedly and extensively such things as ‘fulcrum point,’ ‘counterpoise,’ ‘balancing the fly rod,’ and ‘letting the rod do the work,’ none of which has any merit whatsoever… There can be no such thing as balance in a fly rod. There can never be a fixed ‘fulcrum point’…”
His conclusion, which I am sure Castwell and Sanders know by heart, is “Use the lightest possible reel of good quality and adequate capacity no matter how long or heavy the rod may be.”
The term “balance” would be more appropriate for discussing such things as the Confucian Golden Mean, but it seems that the quest for a ?balanced? fly outfit is alive and well.
Quote: “Use the lightest possible reel of good quality and adequate capacity no matter how long or heavy the rod may be.”
OK, so this is what I was looking for.
I never should have used the word “balance”. Obviously, there are many variables and you can’t balance the thing perfectly under all conditions, etc., etc.
What I was really getting at was whether there was a point where the you feel like a reel is just too darned heavy. I agree that the lighter the better.
I am just a rookie so what do I know? Not much. And, it shows…<grin> I disagree with the concept that the lighter the line,rod,reel combo the easier it is to stop the momentum of the loaded rod/line. If “think” that if I have in my hand a 9’ rod, and my hand is just above the reel, and the reel outweigh the rod and line…when I cast forward and stop…and hold back with my wrist…that extra weight just under my wrist is going to help my wrist hold the stop…? Isn’t it? "methinks there are no definite answers that I agree with and so I will have to just find this one out for myself. I also think some are getting too too deep. The simple question is is it better to balance the reel rod combo pretty close…or to totally ignore it? Perhaps there are more than one correct answer…depending on all the variabls. But then, as a rookie, what do I know. I know those who have gone before have figured out a lot of this. Respectfully, Plain Old Jim…and now I need to add Plain old Poor old Jim…I’m Plain, and I’m old, and I’m poor…<grin>
preast,
I think J.C. has it right. Less mass means less inertia and easier cotrol of the outfitt during the stops and starts of the casting motion. You can try experimenting with various outfitts to find the one that “feels right” to you. Remember that balance is also changed when fighting a fish. I want a rig that will not wear me out after a day of fishing and gives me good control while fighting a fish. As an aircraft crew member I had to be able to compute weights and balances of the aircraft for various loading conditions on a slide rule to find the aircraft center of gravity. I could go on for pages about weights and balances but it would bore all of you to death. I think if you keep the mass down and pick a rig that feels right for you, you will be happy.
I “think” that if I have in my hand a 9’ rod, and my hand is just above the reel, and the reel outweigh the rod and line…when I cast forward and stop…and hold back with my wrist…that extra weight just under my wrist is going to help my wrist hold the stop…? Isn’t it?
No, the heavy reel is also moving. Looking at your own right hand fore cast, the rod will be moving forward and down (counterclockwise), and the reel will be moving back and up in relation to your rod (and also counterclockwise). That is, the reel’s movement will be reinforcing the rod’s movement. If the rod and reel weigh the same, you now have twice the rotational force to stop. Plus the whole outfit is in forward motion, which has to be stopped. For this, light is better than heavy.
methinks there are no definite answers that I agree with and so I will have to just find this one out for myself.
Go for it. Run the experiments that Marinaro ran with different-weight reels on the same rod. If you discover he was wrong, let us know.
I also think some are getting too too deep. The simple question is is it better to balance the reel rod combo pretty close…or to totally ignore it?
I think that is the simple question we have attempted to answer. The simple answer is: “Use the lightest possible reel of good quality and adequate capacity no matter how long or heavy the rod may be.”
Perhaps there are more than one correct answer…depending on all the variabls.
Maybe if it is raining, or your fly line is green, or you are fishing a Chernobyl Ant, you should fish with a balanced outfit (whatever ?balanced outfit? means). But I doubt it. You mentioned that ?some are getting too deep.? In looking at ?all the variables,? you are indeed making it deep. On this one, it is better to stay shallow. This simple question has a simple answer.
Preast…apologize fer getting in on your question. I am learning board etiquette. Next time I will just post my own question. I appreciate the comments. I am in the process of building my first 9’ 4wt and I don’t have a clue what reel to get for it. I like the easy to remember, and probably best policy is the lightest reel that will do the job. Thanks all…I butt out now.
Jim, no offense taken at all here. I don’t consider that a butt-in by any means. It was thrown out there to let people tear into it. That’s what this is about right? Your 2 cents is as useful as the next guys.
Quote:
"… Selecting a rod and reel combination is a matter of feel. Experts say that the two must be in balance. I think that is subjective. What they really mean is does it feel comfortable to you. Please have the guy put some backing and line on the reel. You can?t measure feel with an empty spool. "
This is exactly what I was getting at. More of a “feel” and less of a “balance”. That’s why I don’t really think all the physics explanations are that applicable. Sure it’s the reasoning behind it, but like we’ve all pretty agreed upon, it’s more about what’s comortable. I just thought somebody out there might have a rule of thumb.
Now, for some physics. I’m with you Busbee, on the rotational velocity/inertia theory. But I gotta tell you, all this talk about “stopping the rod” is not interesting to me. I don’t and have never had a problem stopping the rod. What I think Jim is getting at is the leverage that the rod has against your wrist. He is dead on in that a heavier reel counters that. I know that casting a rod with NO reel is not comfortable at all.
So the original question was actually how much a line weighs, but it turned out to be another question by the time I got through typing–my fault.