Hair spinning/stacking problems

All about flies Fly Tying
1

Okay, so I’ve been learning the art of spinning deer hair for a little over a month now. Today, while stuck inside waiting for Isaac to decide if it’s just going to blow, or rain, I discovered one of my problems. I’ve always had a problem with the whole mass of hair spinning instead of staying where I want it. Truly frustrating any attempts at stacking. I’ve assumed that it was something I was doing wrong, thread tension or something. When I lay thread on the hook, to start the fly, I usually put a drop of superglue (Zap Gel) and wrap over it.
But as I was spinning, the whole mass started slipping around again. This time, I realized that the glue was holding the thread together, but not holding the thread to the hook.

So, are there any good spinners out there … and if so, how do you lay thread down so that it won’t slip when you tighten down on a flare?

2

If I understand the problem correctly, try taking a loose wrap around the bundle of hair before setting it in place on the hook. Then place it on the hook and flair it as usual. The wrap should keep it from sliding around the hook

3

I like to have a good thread base; despite all I’ve heard about spinning on a bare hook, I’ve never had trouble spinning on thread, at least to get things started. Pulled a couple shots from a bullethead hopper I tied; not the same as a bass bug, I know, but it still applies when you’re putting that first bunch of hair on the hook.

UTC 140 works great

trim the butts, a couple soft loops and then pull firmly, letting the hair spin around the shank

like so

I do admit when packing a lot of deer hair on progressive applications, it’s easier to work on a bare shank.

Regards,
Scott

4

To flair hair (as in a comparadun when you want the hair to be on only one side of the hook), you need a thread base as the hair will “sled” on the smooth bare hook. It is very important, when flairing hare, not to let go of the butts in the slightest until you have really cinched down on the hair, causing it to flair.

To SPIN hair (360 around the hook), you want a bare hook so the hair “spins” around the hook.

5

For stacking hair for a hair bug, place the first clump on top of the hook and take two wraps over the hair clump, the second one directly on top of the first one. TURN LOOSE OF BOTH THE HAIR AND THE THREAD, LETTING THE BOBBIN HANG STRAIGHT DOWN ON THE BACK SIDE! THE HAIR IS NOT GOING TO SLIP! (Do this just once to convince yourself that the hair wont slip!)Next, take the bobbin and PULL STRAIGHT DOWN. Have your non-tying hand resting on the head of the vise, with the thumb just behind the hair clump. As you pull down, the clump will begin to move down and around the hook. Once the hair is on the underside of the hook, place the thumb squarely down on top of the clump to hold it in place ( this stops it from further spinning), and apply maximum tension to the thread. Remove your thumb, and take two or three quick wraps directly on top of the first two. This will lock the hair in place. Continue by stacking an equal amount of hair on top of the hook. Be sure to make ALL thread wraps, for both clumps, directly on top of one another. Once the top clump is in place, move the thread through the hair to infront of the two clumps, and with the thumb, index and middle finger (the ‘three-point’ grasp), pull all of the hair back towards the bend of the hook and make several tight wraps (3-5) as close to the base of the hair clumps as possible. This will lock the hair in an upright position. Repeat the process, packing each set of clumps as tightly as possible back against the previous bundles.

That’s all there is to it! Like taking candy from a baby, once you get the hang of it.

The secret is in using ONLY TWO thread wraps, pulling STRAIGHT DOWN, as opposed to three wraps and pulling towards you, or in some other direction.

Good luck!

6

I appreciate all of the advise, but you’ve missed the point. I can do everything you’ve said. But when i start to do the next bunch of hair, the previous batch spins farther. This picture of a diver I did is a perfect example. The yellow was SUPPOSED to be on the bottom … ended up on top.

hair bug 006a.jpg
hair bug 006a.jpg767×575 44.3 KB

7

after spinning the hair so the yellow is on bottom you need to take several wraps through the hair to hold in place, then do the top one but do not spin just tie in on top and tighten the thread letting the hair flare while holding the hairfrom spinning around hook shank. add a few wraps to hold through the hair and proceed to pack the hair tight. then proceed to next spinng and flare…

8

Okay, once again, let me rephrase the original post. I am not having problems with the spinning and the stacking. I am having problems with the whole thing … the original thread base, everything spins.
My question should have been: Has anyone had a problem with the thread base spinning and how do you lay down the original base without it later spinning on the hook?

9

Thought I gave it my best shot here

I lay a good thread base (that’s about 10 wraps back and 10 wraps forward; could probably get away with half that to start a deer hair bug) with the right stuff and I have no, repeat, no problems. It spins where and when I want it to.

Regards,
Scott

10

I had the same problem when I started. I do not use a thread base other than the first section of hair that I put in over the wraps that hold the tail in place. Although I have watched Dave Whitlock spin and stack hair over a thread base I have not been able to pack the hair as tightly using a thread base.

Looking at your example image it looks to me like the hair might not be packed tight enough. I found that if I do not pack the hair tight enough sections of the body if not the whole body are more likely to spin.

Another thing I found is that I was that if I reduced the amount of hair in each bundle I could cinch it down tighter. So I started using more bundles with less hair per bundle. Other than that I tie just like Aged Sage describes.

11

I think you have missed the critical point of my response, as well as that of others. You are not putting enough tension on the thread! PULL IT TO THE BREAKING POINT! EVERY LOOP!

Also, for ALL of the thread spinning, you have NOT properly done your jamb knot. This is what locks the thread to the hook in the first place; and serves as the base for all additional thread work. The quality of the thread work, with respect to materials slipping around the hook, is no better than the quality of the jamb knot.

A thread base is totally unnecessary. We have had eight and ten year olds learn to tie excellent deer hair bugs directly on the hook in our club’s fly tying courses, with no difficulty whatsoever.

12

ScottP, you did give the advise I probably need. I just might not be wrapping enough on to start with. I was also going over my processes and I think I might have a problem with thread. I am using a suggestion from online, super braid in place of GSP. I actually got that from the “beginner fly tying” part of this site. I am thinking that my problem with that is there is no stretch. A little stretch would act to lock the thread to the hook better.
Anyway, thank you all, for the advise.

13

Danville flat waxed nylon is more than adequate. This is the thread that has been used in our club’s fly tying course for deer hair work for over 35 years now. Our instructor, who has tied commercially, has tried all of the touted threads, and still uses this for his own tying. Being nylon, it does stretch.

14

Aged sage: “I think you have missed the critical point of my response, as well as that of others. You are not putting enough tension on the thread! PULL IT TO THE BREAKING POINT! EVERY LOOP!”

My response: I didn’t miss the point … you never didn’t make that point. But even so, I’ve actually cut through the hair, trying to pull the thread tight enough.

Aged sage: “Also, for ALL of the thread spinning, you have NOT properly done your jamb knot. This is what locks the thread to the hook in the first place; and serves as the base for all additional thread work. The quality of the thread work, with respect to materials slipping around the hook, is no better than the quality of the jamb knot.”

My response: You also never mentioned a jamb knot. I’ve never seen directions that told me to use a jamb knot. That would probably explain everything. I’ll look into how to do this. Thank you.

Aged sage: “A thread base is totally unnecessary. We have had eight and ten year olds learn to tie excellent deer hair bugs directly on the hook in our club’s fly tying courses, with no difficulty whatsoever.”

My response: And of course, therein lies the main problem. Your 8 and 10 year old kids had a course … I am trying to learn how to do all of this by looking at pictures and videos online. While good, none have ever explained the reasons for things NOT working right.

15

As to the thought about whether to thread the base of the hook or not:

It is important to note that when FLAIRing hair it is important to keep the hair from spinning. When doing this, having a threaded base on the hook helps to prevent the hair from spinning aqround the hook shank.

When SPINing hair, you do not want thread on the bare hook in order that it is smooth and easily spins on the hook

It depends on whether you are flaring or spinning hair. Flairing hair is the technique that keeps the hair on TOP of the hook - not spun around the hook. This is used for flies like the comparadun…

Hope this clarifies things a bit?

16

Fishingfiend…

It would have been helpful in drafting a response if you had initially mentioned that you were trying to learn from videos, etc., and on your own. I am self-taught, and from books only, as the modern teaching aids called “Videos” were a thing of the future when I was learning; so, I am quite familiar with many of the associated problems. I did not mean to insult, or demean you in any way. I am sorry if you have been offended by my responses. My references to 8 and 10 year olds were made to convey the fact that spinning and stacking are not any more difficult than properly mounting the wings on a dry fly, regardless of their type. Moreover they were"Taking" the course, and these were their very first attempts at the process. They had not yet “had” a course.

I am not responsible for the shortcomings of either books or videos on the subject. You should see my “list” of gross omissions I have noted in such things over the years. This is all part of the learning process, in my opinion.

I did not mention the Jamb Knot, as I assumed that, since you are trying to worlk withdeer hair, that you already know how to attach the thread to the hook. Given the nature of your post, I think this was a reasonable assumption to make.The method of attachment is known as a “Jamb Knot”.

The jamb knot is made by laying the thread across the hook at about a 45 degree angle, and then wrapping the thread backwards over itself for five or six turns, and then cutting off the ‘tag end’; the short, loose end of the thread. (With regard to any type of thread/rope work, the short end of the material is known as the “Tag” end, and the long working portion is known as the “Standing” portion.)

With respect to hair clump size, a bunch that is about the diameter of a #2 lead pencil (what’s that?) is about right for a bug on #1 or larger hooks.

Byron…

I think you will find that most ‘professional’ deer hair bug-tiers tie directly to a bare hook, both for spinning and stacking. Most, at least those of my acquaintance, develop the knack of using the thumb of the non-tying hand to stop the hair from moving around the shank once it is on the bottom side of the hook. The hair will spin just as readily over a thread base as it will over a bare shank. With just a little practice, the technique is quickly mastered.

Nontheless, your suggestion is a good one for beginners.

Regards,
Frank

17

No offense taken … I was getting a bit amused by the references to spinning and stacking when all I was having a problem with was keeping the hair in place after getting the flair I wanted. But laying the thread on the hook, I did not know was called a jamb knot. Yes, I do that, and I know how to do it … but it then goes back to the thread I am using. There is no stretch to it, and it is very slippery, so I believe this is what’s causing the core of my trouble. I believe the easiest thing for me to try, is to go for the thread you mentioned and give that a chance.
Again … I do appreciate all the help and advise.

18

aged sage:

I learned to flair hair from folks like Craig Mathews. I think you will find that they lay a thread base from the eye to half way to the bend, then back half ways of that before flairing/stacking the hair for the Sparkle Dun and other Comparadun patterns. Not sure what bass bug tiers do though.

19

I think the bottom line here is to TIE TIGHTER and use a good WAXED NYLON thread.

20

i read the first page, didnt bother reading the second, so if anyone already said this sorry…

scott's picture on the first page shows starting the thread forward then back to the begining, that should lock your thread from spinning for the first stack... after the stack is finished, wrap a couple of threads to lock the hair upright.... i put a half hitch in here with a drop of glue before packing and starting my next clump... wrap 2 to 3 more times over the half hitch to lock that in place... seems to work ok for me, im no expert though, i also have recently started to dabble in stacking, the above suggestion worked for me. thread over thread over half hitch locks well.