This could be a sound off topic but it should work here too.
I have watched a lot of experts tie at expos ,etc…and have wondered…as they tie with one wrap here and two wraps there…or this material here and there…are they really tying flies that will hold up to the rigors of actual fishing?..or are they tying what looks good for demo purposes???
I know some of our gurus are practical but do you think this happens?
There are very few materials that cannot be well secured with 2-3 wraps of thread. In fact, I think one of the things that separates a great tyer from an average tier is thread usage. Most tiers I feel use way too much thread in their flies.
Jeremy
Jeremy is spot on with this one.
If you get the chance to watch a true EXPERT Mary Dette you will see thread wrap economy at it’s finest. Same technique that has been used by her family for 9 decades. Dette flies are the paramount of quality and durability. If one of thier flies fell apart when you fished it you would either get your money back or a free replacement fly. Believe me no pro tyer wants customers to come back with complaints…you won’t be in business for long.
Jim
[url=http://www.Jimsflyco.com:05171]www.Jimsflyco.com[/url:05171] [url=http://www.flymph.com:05171]www.flymph.com[/url:05171]
I was in a bit of a hurry when I posted earlier, but I wanted to add this.
I used to play a game with myself. Once I got a fly to the point where I felt it was technically acceptable with straight wings, nice hackle, smooth body, etc I would start the game. The game was that each time I tied the fly I had to use less thread than the time before until I got to the point that I felt like I could not possibly tie the pattern with less thread. Try it. You’ll see slimmer better looking bodies, nicer heads, and many other benefits right away. It also forces you to pay more attention to the placement of each wrap. This will train you to tie a nice smooth underbody for quill bodies, biot bodies, and things like that.
Jeremy
Any kind of hair and most synthetic materials take more than a few turns. They are incorporated in a bunch of patterns. In the classic style of hackle tail, feather wing, hackle collar style the 2-3 wrap is true. Add a bit of hair and things change?.tye salt bugs and things change quick…
harry mason
[url=http://www.troutflies.com:d06e1]http://www.troutflies.com[/url:d06e1]
A really-good/great tyer can tell you what EVERY wrap of thread is there for.
There is a fine line between fly fishing and standing in a river waving a stick, and YOU SIR have crossed that line!
Squirrel hair, marabou tails, dumbell lead eyes, wire/lace ribbing, etc. all need more than 2 turns to wrap securely.
A lot of natural materials are not durable so the tie on isn’t the weak point and there is little need for greater security than a turn or two.
My personal opinion is that a quality, well engineered fly pattern needs to last around 20-30 fish of good size (i.e. 2+lb trout), or 10 steelhead in the 7lb range, etc.
harry mason
[url=http://www.troutflies.com:d98c8]http://www.troutflies.com[/url:d98c8]
[This message has been edited by bones (edited 19 March 2006).]
JeremyH
I think a better “game” would be to false cast the fly after each new thread iteration. The one that lasts the longest is the one I would stop at. Then get the bug wet and false cast it, if it holds together it’ a keeper. Finely tapered bodies and thin profile are desirable, but to have all that hold together for 10 plus fish is the total goal
harry mason
[url=http://www.troutflies.com:12d9d]http://www.troutflies.com[/url:12d9d]
I’ll only address the ‘expert’ (in my estimation anyway) fly tyers I have watched. They all used thread with exactness of placement and a minimum number of wraps. Mary Dette, who I’ve had the pleasure of watching about 4 times, often uses 1 or 2 wraps for each material. Of course, depending on the material, i.e. deer hair, she’ll use more. I should also point out that she does not use a bobbin. She prepares an 18 inch piece of thread and applies a special wax to each piece prior to starting to tie the fly. She explained that the wax protects the thread and helps hold the material in place.
Another point that these experts have in common is their knowledge and proper use of thread ‘tension’. They may all use threads by different manufacturers, different thicknesses, different properties and different strengths but they all know how to maximize whatever thread they are using.
So yes, they do tie flies with looks in mind, but the flies will hold up because the fly has been tied(built) with techniques that maximize the strengths of the binding material. In the case of the fly, it is the thread.
Allan
[This message has been edited by tyeflies (edited 19 March 2006).]
Maybe “expert” should be divided into two catagories…commercial or
“functional” tyer and “artistic” tyer. Not that there isn’t a lot of common ground. 
…lee s.
Another point that these experts have in common is their knowledge and proper use of thread ‘tension’. They may all use threads by different manufacturers, different thicknesses, different properties and different strengths but they all know how to maximize whatever thread they are using.
Yup, very true and the number of wraps depends on the material being tied in. Thread qualities and placement may or may not reduce the number of wraps. What adds bulk to beginning tiers flies is the number of turns taken after the initial tie in of one particular material, like a hackle tail. Placement has a lot to do with the number of turns.
harry mason
[url=http://www.troutflies.com:9c2a9]http://www.troutflies.com[/url:9c2a9]
Harry, I love your website and generally respect your opinions. However, I don’t know why you would presume that my flies are falling apart from just casting, or that I’m NOT tying commercially. I use 8/0 uni-thread almost exclusively for everything that I tie. I have never had one of my flies come apart - ever. With most materials I use one or two wraps to secure in place followed by one wrap on the hook shank under the material and one or two more wraps on the material. I tie commercially for two shops in town as well as doing custom orders for a few individuals. I’m nowhere near commercial tying on a large scale, but I’ll probably do somewhere around 250-300 dozen this year so I am tying a few.
Obviously many materials can be difficult to secure. A prime example is anytime your pattern calls for a piece of mono, which definitely requires some extra thread. If you use your thread properly and you know your materials most things can be secured with very little thread. I’m not saying that anyone should make it their goal to tie everything down with one thread wrap, but many many tiers wrap thread in layers instead of wraps when it’s just not necessary. My “game” is more about forcing a tier to think about the thread they are using and be as economical with it as possible, rather than haphazardly piling it on. I have passed on the idea of this game to many tiers struggling with things like proportions, quill bodies, eye crowding, and poor heads and have seen much improvement in their flies once they begin to actually think about what they are doing with the thread. Daniel J is right on. An expert tier can tell you the exact purpose of every wrap. If there are 2,4, or 20 of them so be it as long as they all have a purpose and the tier knows what that purpose is.
Jeremy
bones,
“Finely tapered bodies and thin profile are desirable, but to have all that hold together for 10 plus fish is the total goal”.
Wow! Let’s forget everything else in fly fishing for a moment. My goal is to tie flies that attract and influence a trout to strike. Of course they should be durable, and I’d like to think that mine are. However, flies are disposable. Some flies, due to the nature of the materials, are more durable than others. Some flies simply don’t work well after one or two fish. It seems odd to set a goal based on durability. We can tie flies that will never come apart. A lot of good they will do if they don’t attract and prompt the trout to strike! What’s more appropriate is to set a goal on whether the fly works. I can always replace a pattern that comes apart from being ‘hit’.That’s far more acceptable then throwing away a durable pattern that doesn’t get touched.
Allan
JeremyH … I was no way saying or trying to imply anything about your flies falling apart what so ever. My apologies for misleading you and any others into thinking that was my intent.
My suggestion was meant to emphasize durability. I meant no disrespect whatsoever.
harry mason
[url=http://www.troutflies.com:858e5]http://www.troutflies.com[/url:858e5]
Nothing lasts forever…
There’s almost nothin’ wrong with the first lie, it’s the weight of all the others holdin’ it up that gets ya’! - Tim
It seems to me that the paucity, spare, less is more (pick one) idea would be much more important on tiny dries than say on a Mickey Finn wet. I go for proportion and appearance as well as durability on flies that sink, rather than counting thread wraps. Jeremy’s game would be a good excersize on floating flies.
I speak as a true ameteur!! Now somebody shoot me down and show me the error of my wicked ways.
Lew
We can tie flies that will never come apart. A lot of good they will do if they don’t attract and prompt the trout to strike! What’s more appropriate is to set a goal on whether the fly works.
One mans “go to” fly is another mans throw away fly. Hard to judge how effective a fly is if it explodes on the second back cast. But then, you knew that…
harry mason
[url=http://www.troutflies.com:ca7e4]http://www.troutflies.com[/url:ca7e4]
Harry,
“it explodes on the second back cast”
Wish I knew what you mean. I’ve never seen, had that experience, or heard about that happening before.
Allan
David Collyer, one time pro tier in England and the author of two books on flytying, went on record to state that if his flies would last long enough for a customer to catch one fly on that said customer had received his money’s worth in full.
Hmmm… I am mostly with Harry here. I do not want my flies to fall apart on me, no matter how many fish I have landed on one. I do not mind leaving them in fish, I do not mind leaving them in a tree, I do not mind losing them on a snag. I would mind if they came apart.
As a matter of course, they do not.
Cheers,
Hans W
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