The information offered in another thread kind of peaked my interest. Let’s see how many of you (of course I include myself) are willing to take up a challenge to investigate, identify and post here the first article or essay you can find that was written in a: book, pamphlet or magazine that describes the proportions of a Catskill Dry Fly. Specifically, you must cite the reference, by title and date, the author and the proportions.
Anyone up to this challenge?
Allan
Allan,
Didn’t we do this about four or five years ago? Seems to me it garnered something like 100-plus responses. Or was that an inquiry about the first reference to Catskill style dry flies?
RW
Allan,
Didn’t we do this about four or five years ago or was that just the earliest reference to “Catskill Style” dry fly? We had over 100 responses to that one.
RW
I really think the Catskill fly style and proportion’s were established long before the Catskill name was used to describe them. I can’t wait to get home and do some digging in a few book’s.
With respect to proportions of all parts of a Catskill Dry Fly, the earliest thing I can find, on a quick and dirty check in my library, complete with a diagram, is to be found at the top of page 38 of Eric Leiser’s book: “THE COMPLETE BOOK OF FLY TYING”, published in 1983. He gives the following proportions: Tail Length=Wing length; Hackle length=3/4 Wing Length or 1 1/2 Hook Gap: Body Length=2/3 Hook Shank.
However, a much earlier note on tail length and wing length is to be found in Art Flick’s “Master Fly Tying Guide”, at page 63 where he cites Al Brewster’s story about Brewster’s discussion with Rube Cross, during which the two finally agreed that “…the tail should be the same length as the hook shank…” They also agreed that the hackle should be “…1/8 to 1/4 inch larger than the gape of the hook.” Flick’s treatise was published in 1972.
Unfortunately, in the book: CATSKILL FLYTIER, by Harry Darbee and Mac Francis, published in 1977, there is no mention whatsoever of fly proportions. This is most interesting to me, as Darbee and Walt Dette started a fly tying business together as boys, and continued as partners for some time after both married. Their wives were also tiers in their business.
Regards!
I quickly scanned Rube cross’ book but I was not able to locate any mention in it. Now the gauge in Eric’s book is not the gauge that the Dette’s used or use. Further the D&D’s tore Rubes flies apart to see how they were tied, So I bet that Rube did make a reference somewhere before Eric’s book. Rube also claimed that he was taught by Gordon but the is no verification from that. Another source would be Steenrod who was taught by Gordan. Those are the two that I would start my research on if I had anything written by Roy.
Hi RW,
On this site there have been threads about the definition of ‘Catskill Dry Fly’, ‘Catskill Fly Tyer’, and ‘Catskill Patterns’. However, I don’t think that this question, about the first written description of the general proportions of a Catskill Dry Fly, has been discussed. I’m pretty sure that the thread you are thinking about had to do with the 'first use of the phrase, ‘Catskill Dry Fly’.
Still looking.
Allan
You may be very astute in your observation of Mary Dette’s flies and your ability to glean measurements through the observation of the photos. However, although perhaps well intentioned, your conclusion does not answer the question because you’re not citing a written reference. Also, you’re assuming, “The photos are said to have been tied by Elsie herself”, is factual. Not saying it’s not and that they weren’t. Just that a ‘statement’ is not a primary reference. Lastly, you’re assuming that there’s a set of proportions that “we grew up with”. Many people, certainly more than me, have handled flies tyed by the ‘masters’. I mean tyers of the Golden Era (say 1920-1960). The proportions of dry flies by those tyers varied somewhat but most certainly DO NOT fit the proportions you identify. I have personally measured the proportions of flies from the vault of the Catskill Fly Fishing Center and can attest the proportions used by them were significantly fifferent than what you report.
However, even my report, which I published years ago does not answer the question that I’ll state again - What is the earliest reference of the proportion measurements of the Catskill dry fly?
Allan
It is worth noting that the article says that “…they were tied for Art Flick’s book…”. This begst he question of who actually tied them. As at least four of the listed flies were patterns of Flick’s own origin, I doubt that he would turn to someone else to tie his own patterns for him for his own book; though I have no way to prove this. As he was a profound believer in the Grey Fox Variant, and tied large numbers of them for his own use, I would also venture that the picture of this fly is actually one of Flick’s own ties. Again, just speculating.
Byron,
…“These flies are the property of Glenn C. Overton and were purchased by him from Elsie Darbee.”
Again, that is not a primary source. It does identify that the flies were bought by someone from someone. Does not specify who tyed the flies. A hackle gauge is just that. It is a tool made by one individual for his specific purpose. It may or may not identify what is generally accepted in the community of fly tyers who tyed in that particular style. Example: Because Lee Wulff tyed w/o the use of a vise, that certainly does not mean that in order for a fly to be considered a ‘Wulff’ it must be tyed w/o a vise. The use of Dette’s gauge was to aid him. If you had spoken to the Dettes or people who had, you’d know that each ‘size’ had an allowable deviation. It was a general measurement and often tails, hackle, wings deviated.
Still looking for documented evidence.
Allan
Byron,
Apparently you do not know what a ‘primary source’ is. Now, I do not have an answer and that is why I asked the question. Specifically I asked, "the first article or essay you can find that was written in a: book, pamphlet or magazine that describes the proportions of a Catskill Dry Fly. Specifically, you must cite the reference, by title and date, the author and the proportions.
Also, you ask, “You mean that Elsie Darbee may have sold Mr. Overton someone else’s flies?” Answer - Of course! She may have sold her own, Walt’s, Mary’s or a tyer they employed. All that sentence states is that she was the one who ‘sold’ them. As far as the gauge being a standard for the Catskill Dry Fly, I can say, after examing and measuring many flies from the tyers of that era, that the proportions on that gauge were not a standard.
Now, if you don’t have a specific primary source stop trying to ‘prove’ you know what you don’t. Like I said, I readily admit I don’t have an answer to this question and I don’t try and snow people into thinking that I do.
I hope someone does however.
Allan
I’ll have to say that Allen is correct about the gauges. I have I think 6 vintage gauges including the Dette gauge. None of them measure the same.
Just think, if all the energy that has gone into this thread had actually gone in to creating some new flies that will actually catch fishies, those old catskill things would be forgotten in short order and people would actually go fishing for fish instead of fishing for answers.
One of the advantages of not being a historian and interested in and wed to old stuff is that you are more free to innovate, create, originate, and go fishing.
John
P.S. This is said half seriously, half in jest, and half to suggest lightening up. How you take will tell you something about yourself.
I rest my case based on Allan’s comment. Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that Art flick would buy his own flies from someone else to photograph for his own book. That doesn’t make any sense at all!
Allan, RW again
Try Ernest Schwiebert’s “Matching the Hatch”, first published in 1955. He gives detailed recipes for 48 Eastern mayflies, male and female, particularly those that are prolific on Catskill streams like the Beaverkill, Wilowemoc, Neverskink, Esopus and northern Pennsylvania streams like Brodhead Creek. These recipes include wing length, tail length and body length to the eighth and sixteenth of an inch; plus colors and shades of material. Color Plates are included. Pages run from 25 to 98. If there is anything similar out there I’ve never seen it and you know what kind of library I have. Hell, I even bought a couple of books from you back in the day,. This book was where the term “matching the hatch” originated. Everything is subjective, of course, But I’ll bet many authors and fishing writers since 1955 used Schwiebert’s book for reference when writing their own books. I mean, why do the research when he aready did it and layed it out in such a clear and concise way. I think it answers your question completely.
Hope to see you soon, RW
RW,
Schwiebert’s 1955 book, Matching The Hatch, is indeed an excellent resource for mayfly measurements. However, knowing how extensive a library you have, I’m willing to bet you have an even earlier book (about 20 years), by an American author, that gives the measurements of the: a)wing; b)body; and c)tail, of many male and female mayflies. Here’s a clue to the identity of the author - He was inducted into the Catskill Fly Fishing Center and Museum Hall of Fame in 2007. If you can’t identify the author, I’ll post his name tomorrow at about this time. You’ll probably kick yourself (lol).
Anyone else care to guess?
Found another book that predates Schwiebert. Doesn’t appear to have the measurements for as many individual mayfly Genus and Species but many nonetheless. Book is by Bill Blades, Fishing Flies And Fly Tying(1st ed, 1951).
I guess you can extrapolate the ‘proportions’ from specific measurements.
Allan
Preston Jennings
narcodog,
B I N G O!!
Allan
I was looking at Valla’s book again, the pictures of the flies from the original “charmed circle.” The D&D’s seemed to care about proportions. For just about everybody else, it seemed to be a case of “well, that’s close enough.”