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Re: the Copper John nymph, every time I start winding the copper wire, the biots twist with it. It doesn’t seem to matter how tightly they’re bound to the shank. Any tips on preventing this?
Thanks,
Cody
Feels weird giving advise on fly tying usually getting it.
But when I start to wind the copper I pull straight up then over then straight down, no sideways pressure or pulling, and the tail biots do not move.
Hope it helps but seams to easy…
Another couple of things you could do … make sure you are covering the hook with a thread base. When you get the tails tied in, apply some zap-a-gap or superglue to the area where the tails are tied to the hook. Let it dry. They should not twist anymore.
Good luck.
Anytime, I use biots, in a “close to hook shank” situation, I lay down a single thread wrap, FIRST, then a quick shot of Zap-A-Gap, on top of the biot’s tie in point. Also, as suggested, wisely, when wrapping wire, wrap “up and down”, never sideways and your wraps will not only look tighter and closer together, but materials won’t shift around on you!
My dollar’s worth, less .98.
Hey, QQuals! We must have been typing at the same time!?
I put a very small ball of dubbing on the end of the shank before tying in the biots. It splays them outwards and the biots can grip the dubbing. Never had an issue with twisting.
Also might try tying them in with more thread pressure, or securing one on one side first… then secure the other on the other side that way each biot has a thread base to grip.
Sounds like maybe you are starting the wire wraps behind the tie in point of the biots. Try starting the wire wraps just at or ahead of the biot tie in point ???
In tying Prince nymphs I cement the two biots together as a subassembly. Could this help here also?
LF
Tie in the tail biots close to the bead and wrap back to the bend covering the biots. Tie the wire in on the underside of the hook shank, those wraps will help secure the biots as well. Use a smaller size soft copper wire…
tie in the copper wire after you have already secured in the biots.
Make sure you have a good thread base prior to securing the biots. I’ll then tie in the biots all the way up to the lead weight, as this helps lay down the underbody and create a better taper. I’ve never had a problem with the biots moving when doing it this way.
I am with Fly Tyer…
Tie the biots in first and then tie in the copper wire. If you tie the copper wire in first and the biots on top the copper wire will bind against the biots on the first wrap and cause problems.
Just my thoughts and nothing more…
warren… fly tyer
I don’t think it matters, if… and that’s if… you tye in the wire on the bottom of the hook shank. So long as the diameter of the wire is less than the hook’s, you should be able to do it both ways.
I have to try it, since I tye the biots first, but just walking through it I think you it can be done. By tying in the biots first you end up wrapping them twice.
I just finished tying 30 Copper Johns of various sizes without any biot turn. I think Bones got it right to start. Put on your bead and any weight you think necessary. Build up a taper behind the bead to lock it in and wrap one layer of thread to the hook nend, Then wrap the thread at least half way back up the shank, measure the biot length and lock in at that point and wrap back to the bend. Keep constant pressure on the biot as you wrap toward the bend. I then wrap thread forward to smooth the base and tie in my wire and wrap (on the bottom) to the biot tie-in point. Rather than wraping the thread forward again, I let the bobbin hang down and use the thread tension to help guide and layer the wire properly. That covers the part you are having trouble with. Is that as clear as mud? At least it work for me.
Check out Charlie’s instructions…
http://www.charliesflyboxinc.com/flybox/details.cfm?parentID=17
Charlie’s instructions, as linked by Ken, or something like them were the reason I almost never tied a copper john. Then a local fly tier showed me a simplified version, a five step process, and the c. j. became a staple. Forget the wingcase and the expoxy and the …
Tie in the biots, tie in and wrap the wire, tie in and wrap a herl thorax, and tie in some legs. Since that is only four steps, I’ll back up to put an appropriate bead on the hook before you start.
Didn’t mean to get distracted from the original question - but wouldn’t want any new fly tier looking at this thread to get discouraged by a 30 step approach to what can be a very simple ( and effective ) fly.
John
you are correct, any pattern can be reduced to 5 or so steps so long as one knows the other 25 or so steps that make up process to build the fly. “Tye in hackle”… is not a step it is a description of many steps. Not to split a hair or two but, a CJ without the wing case/epoxy is not a CJ, nor is a wingless Adams an Adams. I’m not disagreeing so much as I am saying to show just what it takes to do the pattern IMO, helps the new tier more than finding short cuts just to finish a modified version of a fly quickly.
If one just wants to learn how to tye patterns fast and skip some parts of the pattern that are tough or time consuming IMO their money would be better spent on just buying the flies instead buying of all the tying stuff.
Harry -
Let me start by saying that I have the greatest respect for you and the work you have done in putting together the tutorials on your website. I have learned a lot from you, via your website, and it is much appreciated.
But some of us are not fly tiers so much as fly fisherman, and to me, at least, the concept of the copper john is the fly, not the details that someone with greater artistic ability or craftsmanship, or patience, can manage quickly and effectively, or otherwise. John Stenerson’s version of the copper john, which is what I was describing, is as valid as anyone else’s, to a fly fisherman who is interested in getting out on the water and fishing an effective pattern. The essentials are there, credit is given to the originator of the pattern, and it fishes “in the round,” which is not a bad thing.
The money thing comes up with some regularity. Most comments are to the same effect as yours - that you ain’t gonna save anything by tying your own flies. To me, it is a matter of scale. There is a tipping point somewhere between when it costs more to buy your flies and when it is economically advantageous to tie your own, whether you do it as art or craft, as you describe, or to just go fishing with fishing flies.
If you fish 10-15-20 days a year, it probably would make economic sense to buy your flies. When you fish 125-150-175 days a year, as some of us do, it is probably less expensive to tie you own. Somewhere in between the decision is about the art and craft of tying flies rather than the economics of fly fishing.
Getting back to the original question, there were lots of good ideas offered. Rather than have the discussion go to more complexity about fly tying, I just wanted to inject a sense of simplicity about fly fishing.
John
P. S. I’ll continue to recommend www.troutflies.com to anyone as one of the best and best done sets of tutorials I’ve seen.
John
I don’t think we disagree much at all here. There many ways to “simplify” patterns. Trust me, when I tied for the “boxes” I was looking for any short cut I could find. Do I think a wingless Adam’s is heresy? …no… do I think it’s a fishing fly …yes, by all means. What I was getting at, in rather round about way, was learning the patterns and the steps can give the fly fisherman/tier a tremendous amount of latitude at the tying bench. Knowing what is fluff and what will catch fish comes from, like you say, time on the water…and… knowing how to mess with a pattern. The knowing how to mess comes from knowing how the pattern is built. Knowing what you want to mess with comes from experience on the water.
I think you point of view is validated by the vast numbers of patterns in shop boxes that are tied to catch the fly fisher… not so much the fish.
Thank you for the kind words, they are much appreciated
i think theres room in fly boxes for the original as meant to be tied version and the stripped down version. both will catch fish in the end. but to be called “insert original name here” isnt right.
I have never had this problem. It may be because I set down a ridiculous base of thread over the body to give it a really nice taper, and it secures the biots really well…
hope it helps, nen-bran
Edit: And yes, tie in the biots before the copper.