Just a thought …
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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
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FYI, … there’s a Poll on Dennis’ board … I think you can vote even if you’re not a registered member.
E-mail me for the link…
Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
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fcch,
Okay, you found a fish that is dead in 74 degree water. What does that mean? What does that prove? Not a thing. What if I showed you a similar photo with a dead fish alongside a thermometer that read 55 degrees? The same questions apply.
Unless there’s an autopsy done, no one can tell how or why the fish dies. Age? Predator? Injury? Sickness? Poor C & R tactics? Other? If trout were to be killed by excessive water temperatures, you’d find a large number of them. Personally, I’ve challenged a particular ‘conservation’ group that made charges about temperatures and “Fish-Kills”. The best it could do was show me a picture similar to the one you posted. One dead fish. I’ve seen Fish Kills resulting from chemicals. Temperatures simply drive fish to cooler water. Even if they don’t find it, they manage to live.
Last Saturday, the Beaverkill was clear, low and about 78+ degrees. We watched a dozen or more trout in the shallow water swimming all over the place. They weren’t seeking the shelter of much deeper and shaded water. That really surprised us and the DEC officer as we observed these fish.
Now I don’t suggest fishing under those conditions because it does add additional stress to already stressed fish. However, these fish are more resiliant than we may be giving them credit for. Besides, maybe the natural selection process and ‘survival of the fittest’ comes into play as a way of filtering out the trout that are inferior.
Allan
Allan,
Quite right on all counts.
I guess, … we sometimes THINK, that just be cause WE are uncomfortable, … that the other is TOO. …
Sort of like when we’re COLD, we put a hat and sweater on the baby 
Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
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I’ve got a couple of listings for temperatures for trout.
78.8 F- Rainbows. Lethal limit
53-68 F Optimal Rainbow temps.
75.2 Browns Lethal limit
59-64.4 Optimal Brown temps.
**All numbers subject to the normal scientific doubt. G
The fish population will be affected at the lethal limits. Not saying that trout can’t adapt alittle bit and survive those temps for a while.
Best for fish… only fish below optimal high end. Enforcement… Impossible.
Moral obligation?? If a waterbody has been stocked and the temps exceed lethal limits in the summer, why not catch and keep. If the goal is to encourage a fishery (C&R) then the people fishing need to be educated about fish handling. That is where voluntary closures will help.
This is also were fish habitat plays a large role. Shade, depth (cover), upwellings (unless reduced because of new wells), and riffles to oxygenate the water. There are lots of different types of water often in the same area.
AND is it enough that it is a drought condition or does it have to be temperature dependant… or both before streams are closed (mandatory or voluntary advisories)?
Paul H.
“Whiskey is for drinking; Water is for Fighting over.”
Paul,
The Beaverkill, at Cooks Falls, hit more than 80 degrees about mid-day on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of this week. Most of the hours of those days the water temps were above 75 degrees (per USGS readings).
“75.2 Browns Lethal limit
59-64.4 Optimal Brown temps.
**All numbers subject to the normal scientific doubt. G”
According to the scientific data, we should have seen brown trout floating face up throughout that stretch of water.
PS. I tried to call a few fish science guys but all I got was a message saying, “Please call back or leave a message. We are out fishing”.
Allan
Allan,
You are quite right to doubt those numbers. Like I said
**All numbers subject to the normal scientific doubt.
The numbers are based on the strains of trout stocked/inhabiting Ontario. Different strains will have different tolerances and wild breeding of the strains can change the tolerances even more.
The USF&W Habitat suitability model for browns show the near lethal Temp at 80.96F for adults. [url=http://el.erdc.usace.army.mil/emrrp/emris/EMRIS_PDF/BrownTrout.PDF:4970b]http://el.erdc.usace.army.mil/emrrp/emris/EMRIS_PDF/BrownTrout.PDF[/url:4970b] (Slow opening PDF)
Most eggs were dead at 55.94F.
Fry at 77.83F and juveniles at 84.2F.
This study from Pen. found adult wild browns giving at 84.2 also. Domestic Brown trout didn’t withstand temperatures as high as the wild browns. [url=http://afs.allenpress.com/afsonline/?request=get-document&doi=10.1577%2F1548-8659(2001)130<1211:CTMOWA>2.0.CO%3B2:4970b]http://afs.allenpress.com/afsonline/?request=get-document&doi=10.1577%2F1548-8659(2001)130<1211:CTMOWA>2.0.CO%3B2[/url:4970b]
Papers found here: [url=http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=lethal+brown+trout+temperatures+&btnG=Search:4970b]http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=lethal+brown+trout+temperatures+&btnG=Search[/url:4970b]
There will be trout who survive longer and some that die quicker. Temperature is often not taken where the trout are residing also!! Key to survival is deep waters, lots of oxygen, shade, and cooler upwellings where available.
Your local Bio should know more specifics about the Beaverkill, but there will always be room to move on the numbers. Only the fish can really tell.
Paul H.
“Whiskey is for drinking; Water is for Fighting over.”
tyeflies:
I agree the picture doesn’t say much. However, there have been numerous studies on angler caused fish mortality. One study occurred at a number of Montana fish hatcheries. The study began to determine whether fish caught with different types of hooks suffered higher or lower mortality because of the type of hook used. Hundreds of trout were caught, and then released into holding water where they could be observed for the next several days. While the study determined that the type of hook really made no significant difference in mortality of caught and released fish (more fish died caught on a size 20 barbless hook than any other, as it caught 2 or 3 fish in the gills), the study noted that the only significant change in fish mortality occurred with fish caught and released in higher water temperatures. I read the study, among several others at the Big Springs Fish Hatchery, Lewistown, MT. Just because one environmental group couldn’t provide you with a study showing higher mortality in trout caught at higher temperatures means about as much as the photo of the dead trout by the thermometer. Studies on angler caused mortality, including the relation of water temperature do exist, it just takes a bit of work to find them.
I agree with most of the above, that too high of temps can be to hard on trout. The fact is if you create another regulation it takes more manpower to enforce. Our DNR does not have the money to support that and they really don’t need to be micro managing anyways. However I do wish that they would make the temperature data more available to ALL that fish. There are many that have no idea that trout can’t handle stress when the water temps are too high. As I look through the regulations they give everyone how buy a license I see no mention of this. Time to write a letter and voice my opinion, maybe others could do the same. Education is always cheaper in the long run.
As far as low water conditions LF pretty much summed that up.
I am also one that switches to bass and panfish when these conditions arise.
cea,
I’m not discusing the point(pun intended) about any relationship between water temps, C & R, size of hook, type of hook or any other variable. I’m only saying that I’ve yet to see, personally or in verifiable print, a fish kill resulting from higher than usual water temperatures.
Last Saturday I and several people including a DEC officer were standing on the side of Cairn’s Pool on the Beaverkill. The water was hot and near 78 degrees. Yet, we observed many trout swimming in the open shallow area when, less than 50 feet away, was deeper, sheltered and colder water. Why did these trout stay in the shallows? I don’t know if the trout were wild, recently stocked or holdover but they are browns.
This past Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday the water on the Beaverkill at Cooks Falls was up to more than 80 degrees. For 12 hours each of those days the water was over 75 degrees (USGS gauge information).
So, while I’m not questioning the specific study you cite, I am saying that it has no relevance to my comment. I don’t know what an ‘extreme’ temperature is for trout but in a river there are places of refuge and safety against the heat. It appears some trout may seek cooler water faster than others. In all likelihood, some trout may die sooner than others. However, I repeat, I’ve yet to see or see a verified account of a trout kill resulting from a short spell(days) of high water temps(upper 70s and lower 80s) in a freestone river.
Allan
[This message has been edited by tyeflies (edited 30 June 2005).]
tyeflies: Understood. However, the original post asked about comments related to stream closures (from fishing) during drought conditions. I recognize you said you didn’t recommend fishing under those conditions in your post. And as others have posted, its the added stress of the fish being caught that causes mortality, not necessarily just the elevated water temperatures. Also, on the fish you saw swimming in shallow water rather than the deep, cool holes. During warm weather, the deep cool holes will not necessarily hold the most oxygen for the fish. Hot weather or not, the fish need oxygenated water to breathe, and food to eat. They’ll move out of cooler water to find either one out of necessity. I can’t say for certain that the fish you saw were doing either, but would guess the shallow water was more highly oxygenated or contained the food the fish were interested in at that time. I have observed many fish stacking up during hot weather periods, not in the deep holes, but in the riffles where the water has more 02.
cea,
Also understood what you’ve written.
Just to be clear if my original response was ambiguous. I am in favor of shutting down a portion of a river if necessitated by water conditions.
Also, about the trout we observed. They were in an area of slow moving warmer water. The faster (probably the O2 water) flowed in over the mouth of the pool from the far side and dumped into the deeper water. I have no explanation or guess why these fish acted as they did. The DEC officer was just as baffled by the situation.
Allan
Allan,
The DEC officer was just as baffled by the situation.
At least the DEC officer was smart enough to admit he was baffled. Better 'n giving some half cocked story or theory
I work in the field and it always amazes me when an “authority” just feels they MUST say something. I adhere to the theory, if you can’t say something nice, say nothing … further, If you don’t have the answer, promise to get back to the person, do the research and DO the follow-up.
The original question here was spawned from NT Chris’ question on another thread … As we see in this thread, … there are lots of observations.
Resource management is a very tight balancing act. [ul]
[li]Access vs protection, [/
f2957][/li][li]revenus vs democratics, [/f2957][/li][li]ROI, [/f2957][/li][li]perceptions vs science.[/f2957][/ul][/li]
Thank You LF and JC for providing a forum for the discussion. … We might not solve anything here, … but at least we WILL get people thinking 
Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
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[This message has been edited by fcch (edited 01 July 2005).]
Its not that the fish are just going to die right after they are caught. The warm water takes its tool on the fish and after a few days of warm water 70+, that waste the trouts engery, then being caught, wasting mroe engery. That takes a big toll on the fish and chances are in water that is 75+ the fish will not last a week. Fish have a hard enough time trying to make it through the summer and getting hooked and then draged to some guy standing in a river does not help.
Dead fish are not something you would see all over the river a dead fish is easy pickings and will not be around very long. I have seen times of warm water that there has been alot more dead fish around.
Joe
tye - that section of the pool, though shallow, is a pretty big spring seepage. If I recall, in the winter it tends to not freeze. And of course, this time of the year it’s a thermal refuge. That’s why you saw the trouts huddled there in the shallows and not in the deeper (but not cooler) water.
Years ago I noticed the same phenomenon, and had at that time a pretty accurate thermometer, which showed the water temp to be several degrees less than in the main current.
tl
les
All,
Laws were made to be broke. Laws don’t make people honest. There isn’t enough room in our jails to house felons much less poachers. So what if they get fined and their hunting/fishing rights taken for a few years? They POACHED in the fist placed. Do you think they care about laws? Do you think they care about stream temps? Case in point. Just a couple of weekends ago I was fishing on one of my favorite lakes and over-heard a guy bragging about how he had taken fifteen to twenty fish in a day…went to his cooler and kept on fishing. It made me sick. I REALLY wanted to say someting from across the lake but didn’t. Maybe I should have… but I could have been made fish food that day. Call me a coward. When it comes to people who don’t abide by the law…it doesn’t matter if it is a steam, a lake, a deer or an elk they don’t care. They don’t see things the way we do and the only way to fix that is to educate. Educate our young people as to WHY it is wrong to take a trout when it is pooled up with 100 other trout. WHY it is wrong to fish a stream when it is under low flows/high temps. How to properly release a fish so that it can live to get bigger…even under normal conditions. The fishermen/women and hunters of today are a shrinking segement and unless we do something the only people left fishing and hunting will be the criminals rapeing nature for all they can get…BECAUSE they don’t care.
FTD
Les,Chris, Allan, et al.
I suspect that Les is correct. I have some temperature measuring equipment with which I can measure temperatures in the layer right next to the bottom, the boundary layer. Often it is only a few inches deep and trout are expert at locating these spots. I have observed a vertical temperature gradient of thirty degrees in only three feet. If my equipment holds up, I’m hope to make some measurements there.
Ol’ Bill