Clients that want…
to keep fish?
different reasons…
want to eat them…
want to put them on the wall.
What do you say/do?
i would say let them keep some smaller fish.
if they reallly wanted to.
and as for the wall mount,tell them to get a fiberglass replica made.
its not worth killing that nice fish just to put it on a wall
4 years guiding…
have heard this question…5 times a year…
who is in charge anyway?
if i have no disclaimer on my website…
???
So my business is based on HUNTING large trout.
If they actually are lucky enough…
to stumble on a…
Trout of a LIFETIME…
I am to tell them…NO…
My digital photo is going to have to be enough?
So they got an outastate license…
paid for me for a day.
Most times they are on limited time…
and I say…
NO?
I said it was THEIR call.
Hey there Spinner,
For EVERY possible reason, ya gotta be NUTS to want to kill a fish like THAT. If I were a guide, and I’m not, I’d specify my keep/release preferences beforehand.
Mark
PS: Hey, I know that trick. Just hold the fish real close to the camera. 
I’m still workin on how you do the hand size. I’ll get back to you on THAT one.
I think this is a personal ethical question. There is nothing illegal or inherently unethical about harvesting fish. But I would think a good guide would thoroughly handle/discuss expectations BEFORE the trip. Managing expectations is one of the most important keys to successful guiding.
I have no problem with harvesting “eating size” fish for a days meal. Trophy fish, on the other hand, are too valuable to be caught only once, IMHO. I know several people who have a freezer full of fish that ends up freezer burned being thrown out because their greed is bigger than their appetite. That’s just not right. BTW, “eating size” fish are in the mid-size range. This is when they taste the best. I enjoy walleye, and the best tasting is in the 19"-21" size class. Beyond that, they start tasting “fishy.”
If I were paying a Guide to teach me “where to fish” as well as “how to fish,” I would treat him/her the same as any other paid educator, which means I follow his/her rules while I’m the student (client). If that means releasing all fish caught over a certain size, then that’s the rule I follow. Once I leave the classroom (river) then I can do as I please. Of course there are exceptions to that rule, like the student/client who is “smarter” than the teacher. We all have heard about those stories. My question is why do they hire a guide if they are so smart already? Hmmmmmmm? Maybe they just want an oarsman/cook for a day. :?
My 2 cents.
Joe
I’d say you made a good call.
If you do not want a client to keep a fish, or certain kinds of fish, you need to make that clearly known, up front, BEFORE money changes hands. Once money changes hands, or you have agreed to the contract, and if you have not specified C&R, then YOU work for THEM, they are in charge, and if it is legal for them to take one home, you have NO right to prevent them from keeping a fish.
If you consider it unethical, that is your issue. Ethics are based on personal belief systems, and they are NOT a standard set of rules we all have to live by. You cannot impose your beliefs on other people.
First, it shouldn’t have to be the Guide’s call. There should be a slot limit. It only makes sense and photographing and measuring the trophy fish then back in the water.
Doug
The military has an acronym for it called C.Y.A. (Cover Your A**). Put your rules for harvest and/or catch and release down on paper as part of the contract. Stipulate that they must accept the rules as a part of the contract before you will hire on as their guide. Have them sign it and give all parties a signed copy of the rules. I know in Pennsylvania an oral contract is every bit as legally binding as a written one. You may want to check the laws for this in your area.
Joe,
You are right about walleyes. Any walleye over 21 inches is the best part of our breeding stock and should be released.
There is only one question, is the client within the laws of the State he is fishing to keep it??? If so and he want’s to keep it he can. No guide can change any established State law.
To go further with that thought, once the client has taken time off from work, let alone made the drive to meet the guide, then I think that the guide has a moral obligation to allow clients to keep fish in accordance with the law. That being said, my personal preference is generally for releasing trophy fish if they aren’t in bad shape (read, dying). But I would take a dim view of driving 4 or 5 hours to have a guide lay a bunch of fresh restrictions on me right before we hit the water. I suspect that civil courts and Departments of Natural Resources (presumeably the bodies that license guides) would as well. Ambush is still ambush, no matter how precious we think that big fish may be. I think that guides should be very up-front about stipulations like this. If they are, then all is fair. After all, big fish don’t grow on trees, big nuts do…
Ed
Legally, this IS correct! AND…if you try to harass them into releasing it, you COULD be breaking the law yourself. Hunter/angler harassment is against the law in many states and theft of private property is illegal EVERYWHERE. Once that fish is landed, it becomes the personal property of the person holding the other end of the rod attached to the hook in his mouth. Intimidation and harassment…even verbal…constitutes ASSAULT in most jurisdictions.
Guides work for clients, not the other way around. Anyone who doesn’t understand what that means in all aspects of their business activities has no business guiding.
I often see guides advertising as strictly catch and release. If you knew that when you signed up with them then you have forfeited your legal right to keep fish they guide you to. What you do when you come back the next day is up to you. If they spring it on you when you show up to fish it’s pretty much meaningless to me; If I wanted to keep a fish (not all that often) and it wasn’t agreed at the time of booking the trip that it was strictly catch and release then I would. As for Spinner 's question; I don’t see much you can do without physically taking the fish from them. No matter what they agreed to in advance that is probably going to cause you more trouble and expense than it is worth.
That was precisely my point.
For what its worth I have a different take on the trophy fish debate.
Fish species have evolved over millions of years. The average size is the norm. Nature has decreed that this is the size that it can survive best. Bigger fish may be slower and less agile, unable to as easily avoid dangers. Especially during years of low water. Any fish that is quite big for its species is a freak of nature. By killing only the mid sized fish you are skewing the species genetics toward the larger end of the scale and away from that model which nature took millions of years to produce. Man always thinks he knows what is best and because he thinks bigger is better That is what he aims for.
Or has man been a part of the equation for all those millions of years too? Always keeping the big ones and letting the little ones go? Thus a natural culling of the larger fish, which would have the effect of making the species stronger and more easy to survive.
You will never see in the Guides advertising “We get plenty of small and normal sized fish few of those nasty big ones” They are selling BIG!
It would seem reasonable to me to ask the guide up front what his guidelines are before it became an issue.
Not meant to offend just my rather odd take on the trophy fish question. There is an outside chance however slight, that I may be right.
Roger
[quote=“SilverMallard”]
Legally, this IS correct! AND…if you try to harass them into releasing it, you COULD be breaking the law yourself. Hunter/angler harassment is against the law in many states and theft of private property is illegal EVERYWHERE. Once that fish is landed, it becomes the personal property of the person holding the other end of the rod attached to the hook in his mouth. Intimidation and harassment…even verbal…constitutes ASSAULT in most jurisdictions.
Guides work for clients, not the other way around. Anyone who doesn’t understand what that means in all aspects of their business activities has no business guiding.[/quote]
Each of our states has it’s own, independent, state constitution. Each state has the right to govern itself and establish its own laws to govern within it’s own borders so long as said laws do not violate the U.S. Constitution. Each state establishes laws governing contracts for services performed or to be performed. I can, and did, only speak of what I know about the law in Pennsylvania. That is why I urged spinner1 to check local laws.
In Pennsylvania, a fish on the hook belongs to the state of Pennsylvania until it is consumed. All species of wild flora and fauna are protected by the fish and game laws of the commonwealth of Pennsylvania as well as any federal law that may be applicable.
In Pennsylvania, I can establish and enforce any rules of operation for my services provided so long as said rules do not violate state or federal law. I know a guide that runs a catch and release only service targeting muskies. He stipulates in the contract you agree to that he is providing a catch and release service only and any attempt to keep a musky will cause him to, legally in our state, void your contract, return you to your vehicle and refund your money. He won’t take the fish from you, I wouldn’t either, but he will never hire on with you again and neither would I. It is a matter of free enterprise and having the courage to stand up for one’s ethics and morals. I am not that guide, I do not run a guide service. Some have tried to sue him, all of them have lost their cases. By the way, he has a very, very successful business.
Speaking for myself, I am fully aware that the guide works for the client. That is common sense and applies to all business. So you might lose a client or two. If you cannot cover that risk then you need to find a different occupation because you are going to fail. Anyone in any business that even thinks they can please all of the people all of the time will fail.
My previous occupation was retail management. All of the travel centers I ran had high net profits, I am talking net profits in the five to six digit range every month, low employee turnover rates, good shrink and theft control, the best customer service and lots of return and new customers. We operated within company guidelines. That meant that some customers were barred permanently from our company for violating company policy regarding their conduct and some were prosecuted for various illegal acts defined by local, state and federal law. It is my belief that the majority of clients want to patronize service providers that stand up for their good ethics and morals that fall within the scope of the law. Note that I stated within the scope of the law.
Eric,
Yes, each state differs in game laws and even moreso in tort law. In every state I have ever hunted/fished in, once a game species is legally taken and reduced to possession legally, it is the property of the person so doing. However, the state and sometimes federal government retain some regulatory controls over proper labeling/documentation, transportation, possession limits, and sale. But another private individual certainly has no right to confiscate said property. I imagine PA is no different, but I cannot say for sure.
The guide who has such a clause in his/her contract CAN terminate the contract for service if the legal terms of the contract are violated. Catch and release is an issue of voluntary restraint. It is usually recognized as within the law and not contradictory to it…it’s going a step further, which is usually OK. However, if the angler catching a fish decides to keep it, what can a guide DO? The only thing he can do is refuse further service by returning the client to where he/she picked them up. He cannot legally “take the fish.” And he better have such a C&R clause clearly stated in his/her contract. And if he/she becomes verbally aggressive/abusive, he/she could expose him/herself to civil or even criminal liability.
That was my point. Between the two of us, I think we clarified it.
This is an area that was SERIOUS in MY guide business: waterfowl hunting. The regulations for harvest and possession of waterfowl species (federally regulated) are complex and strict. And the penalties are usually criminal and more severe than state game crimes. Of course, there is no C&R in hunting. But my ONLY legal recourse if a client harvested and/or possessed waterfowl illegally was to pick up the cell phone and call the game warden and report them. Otherwise, I was an accessory to a crime. I could say, for an example of voluntary restraint, that we ONLY shoot drake mallards (even though hens are legal). But if a client chose to shoot a hen he/she was legally BOUND to reduce it to possession and count it in his/her daily bag limit. Not to do so would be the crime of wanton waste of game. Were the same client to shoot one TOO MANY mallard hens, then I would be required by law to report him/her. That’s the LAW. This is why I am somewhat of a stickler about MANAGING EXPECTATIONS through thorough and clear communications PRIOR to the contractual agreement. But in states with hunter harassment laws, I would be acting illegally if I were to try to harass or intimidate a client who had legally shot and possessed that one mallard hen.
I’m personally all for the fishing guide who clearly informs all prospective clients that he is a C&R only guide. But I am also all for the guide who allows the client to choose. Same way with fishermen in general. If they are fishing legally, I have no problem with them and am just glad they’re out there fishing. Personally, if I hire a fishing guide, I want them to shut up and row me to the fish. I consider their job to be to navigate me safely to and from the types of locations we have agreed upon and to give his/her ADVISE regarding things impacting safety and peculiarly local conditions. If I want to hire a teacher, I’ll hire a teacher and not a guide. My personal observation is that far too many guides in hunting and fishing take it all way too seriously and lose sight of the fact that it is ENTERTAINMENT. It’s supposed to be FUN for the client. Show the client a good time (which is defined by the client) and he/she is likely to hire you again and refer others to you. Try to impress him/her with your ethics and expertise, and they are not likely to hire you again or refer others to you. It’s actually pretty simple.