Yes Stev, everyone needs to decide what the lessor evil is for themselves.
My main reason for pointing out the possible hazards in Permethrin is that insecticides are harmful, ask any insect. When something is suspect, I want to know about it and take that suspicion into consideration when deciding. I believe the Environmental Defense site to be a good resource for researching potentially harmful substances.
I believe people should be aware of all possibile consequences to make the best decisions.
Most people think that natural occuring substances and products derived from them are 100% safe. That’s not true. Arsenic and cyanide are naturually occuring substances.
Another misconception is that organic means safe. Organic means anything containing carbon. Strychnine is organic and naturally occuring.
I understand your concerns, agree with your statements about the word “organic.”
I plan to continue using permethrin on clothing. Here in FL, we’re seeing new cases of West Nile daily and not a week goes by without other tropical diseases being reported.
Should I experience problems with permethrin, or hear of any documented ill-effects, I’ll post them.
aka Cap’n Yid.
Stev Lenon, 91B20’68-'69
When the dawn came up like thunder
i plan to give it a try. i live by the estuaries, and they are just a breeding ground for insects. the worst are the no-see-ums. the only thing i’ve found that works is the 100% deet, and i really don’t like using that (especially after i spilled a little bit in a chestpack and it dissolved the vinal between compartments).
Using the Environmental Defense site is like using the PETA site to research animal cruelty, or Greenpeace to research Global Warming. Yes, they have some data and info to impart, but only that which is skewed in the direction they hold.
Don, In reference to the Environmental Defense site you said:
Yes, they have some data and info to impart, but only that which is skewed in the direction they hold.
Doesn’t just about every web site, person, business and government do the same? It would seem counterproductive to lay a course in other directions. And, Environmental Defense don’t do bad things to the environment as PETA kills pets.
Stev, I understand your reason for using it and I’m sure your decision is informed. Unfortunately, Madison Avenue is the main source of information for most consumers and that is most certainly skewed in the seller’s direction.
"Stev, I understand your reason for using it and I’m sure your decision is informed. Unfortunately, Madison Avenue is the main source of information for most consumers and that is most certainly skewed in the seller’s direction.
Joe"
Hence my willingness to voice my opinion and my rational for arriving at that opinion.
If we were talking about cheap beer, or fast food, I’d be far less likely to propose consumption.
aka Cap’n Yid.
Stev Lenon, 91B20’68-'69
When the dawn came up like thunder
I’ve got to try this stuff. The mosquitos in the High Sierra in the early season have to be experienced to be understood. They will carry you off and have you for lunch if you don’t use some protection. DEET works when there are flocks of mosquitos, but when they come in clouds, they still buzz around your head and get sucked into your mouth.
I remember reading about a new repellent that is based on catnip, of all things. It is claimed to be 10 times as powerful as DEET. Has anyone heard of it?
I like the Sawyer spray formula of Permethrin for application to my camping equipment like the tent (around the door area) and exterior of the sleeping bags; plus I spray a light application to my fishing vest. But for application to my bod I’m really sold on the latest “towelette wipes” by Cutter, that use the newer Picaridin in place of DEET. Very effective and pleasant to use and I understand from what I’ve been able to read up on, the Picaridin is the future replacement for DEET.
Dale, I agree, using Permethrin on the tent door area and the exterior of the sleeping bags is a good idea. I’d rather use products that don’t apply directly on skin and make as little contact with skin as possible.
I am going try Permethrin on my vest since the vest isn’t in constant contact with my skin.
The nice thing about Picaridin is it doesn’t smell or melt plastic.
For what it’s worth, I asked my wife for an Orvis Buzz-Off hat for my bithday. ‘My’ day arrived and my hat was there. Fished it a few times: #1, Nice hat! #2,Buzz-Off sucks(IMHO)!
I have used permethrin on clothes, applying it well before hand (so it would dry thoroughly) when going into the brush. But I haven’t used it this year.
I started to worry about what it would be like to be wearing clothes treated in permethrin underneath the waders.
Flyfisherjoe,
Sorry,but the environmental defense type people do a lot of harm.
"Michael Crichton: The ban on DDT was ?arguably the greatest tragedy of the twentieth century?.Since the ban, two million people a year have died unnecessarily from malaria, mostly children.?
DEET is still the best. May melt your flyline, but if I’m going where the bad bugs are, that’s my choice!
Michael Crichton has said many things I strongly disagree with.
I saw the decline of certain species like the brown pelican and the peregrin falcon because of their eggs’ shells thinning and I saw the recovery after the ban. There is scientific evidence that that DDT & DDE caused thinning of egg shells in certain species of birds, especially raptors.
I know malaria kills almost as many people as AIDS in Africa. I also know that DDT is used in many African nations because it is affordable and has proven effective in mosquito control. I’m sure there are ways to use DDT with minimal harm and there are other effective but more expensive methods of control, but then this is a whole other subject.
I consider environmental defense just as important as finding ways to prevent malaria and finding a cure for AIDS. They are related in good ways, not bad as some would have you think. Their goal is the same.
By the way, DEET is no better than Picaridin in repelling mosquitos and Picaridin will not melt your fly line.
Joe
[This message has been edited by flyfisherjoe (edited 04 August 2005).]
Joe
The old scare tactic of blaming thinning egg shells of those species and others on DDT., has subsequentially been proven either false or of not near the importance it was given then.
“Edwards cited several studies, beginning with one on bald eagles conducted by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in Alaska. Captive eagles fed large doses of DDT for a prolonged period of time did not lay eggs with thin shells. Another study found that pheasant eggs with 349 parts per million of DDT hatched just as well as those with little or no DDT. A 1970 study of bald eagle eggshells from Wisconsin, Florida and Maine found that the thinnest shells were from Florida and the thickest shells were from Wisconsin. The Florida eggs had the least amount of DDT and the Wisconsin eggs had the most.”
Dr. J. Gordon Edwards, a distinguished biologist and entomologist, has spent many years exposing the lies told about DDT by well-meaning but misinformed people like Rachel Carson and Al Gore.
There are many documented studies like these.
I haven’t heard of the insect repellant you mentioned. Where can I find info on it?
"
A foolish consistancy is the hobgoblin of small minds
Bamboozle
The CDC recommends that children under three not use oil of euclyptus.Also Picaridin, at the concentrations currently available in USA (7%), are not recommended for use against ticks. Higher concentrations will most likely prove to be effective but are not currently available.
A foolish consistancy is the hobgoblin of small minds
Many people are dismissing the connection between DDT and the problems that certain (not all) bird species faced because studies of other bird species did not indicate a problem.
It is not a matter of misinformation, it’s a problem of only looking at some of the studies by those who don’t want to see the results of those that find harm.
Sure you can say it’s not DDT that causes the problem but when DDT metabolizes it becomes DDE. In a study called:
“DDE-induced Eggshell Thinning in the American kestrel: A Comparison of the Field Situation and Laboratory Results” in the Journal of Applied Ecology by Jeffrey Lincer in 1975, captive kestrels were fed a DDE-laced diet and then compared their eggs with those taken from the nests of wild kestrels.
Lincer found that dietary levels of three, six, and 10 parts per million (ppm) of DDE resulted in eggshells that were 14 percent, 17.4 percent, and 21.7 percent thinner respectively.
Lincer concluded:
“Despite the recent controversy, there can be little doubt now as to the causal relationship between the global contaminant DDE and the observed eggshell thinning and the consequent population declines in several birds of prey”
The recovery of certain species after the banning of DDT is no coincidence.
Picaridin is made by Bayer and Cutter has a repellant that uses it. It’s called Cutter Advanced
I for 1 like and use…and will keep useing 100% DEET…
It works…I see no reason to try fixing whats not broken…
“I’ve often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before” A.K.Best
FlyingCarp, I’ve had great success with the Buzz-Off hat.
While out camping one night I had a headlight on my cap that attracted all sorts of flying, buzzing critters. Remembering the Buzz-Off hat was in the car I swapped hats. Never heard or saw another bug around my head all night.
Next are the socks for fire ants then maybe a shirt if the price ever gets down to earth!
[This message has been edited by Jackster (edited 05 August 2005).]