Boy Scout Fly Fishing Merit Badge at National Jamboree

FAOL Community Fly Anglers Online
1

Just a quick note.

The Boy Scouts of America are offering
a Fly Fishing Merit Badge at the 2005
National Jamboree at Fort A.P. Hill
in VA.

The merit badge was first offered in 2001.
At the 2001 National Jamboree approximately
2500 boys took the badge. The estimate for
2005 is in excess of 8000!

I am told that many Scout Camps would like
to offer the fly fishing merit badge, but
there are not enough counsellors to fill
the demand.

If you are interested in becoming a counsellor, contact your local BSA office.
You can view the merit badge requirements
at [url=http://www.meritbadge.com:55b0f]www.meritbadge.com[/url:55b0f] .Just click on
“Fly Fishing”.

We need some new blood in this sport, some
of our guys are “getting up there”.
My TU chapter has taught the badge for a few
years now, and it is a lot of fun!

MW

2

In our area (Greater Phoenix) the Arizona Flycasters Club has been offering counseling ever since the badge was approved. We have put on many many sessions to quite a number of Troops in the Valley. Last year we were in attendance at a Camporee where more than 76 Scouts received lessons in casting, fly tying, knots, ecology and etimology (sic?).

It is a worthwhile program. Do as MPW advises, call up the local BSA office (you’ll find the number in the white pages) and they’ll get you going. Also, check to see if your local fly fishing club already has a program (as the AFC does) that co-ordinates Troops requests for Counselors.

Teach a Scout to fly fish and you’ve given him a life long advocation, one that he’ll always remember starting out with your help.

Snow on the roof but with fire still in the hearth

3

I am not someone who can give an “official” answer about “flexibility” to merit badge requirements, but I am a merit badge counselor for the Fly Fishing Merit Badge (as well as other merit badges). My approach has been to meet the documented requirements totally. The only time any “flexibility” would be allowed would be a consideration for a disability of some sort. In this day and time of selectively “excusing” requirements (not only on merit badges, but laws and rules) within politically correct guidelines just whittles away the basis for attempting to meet the requirements. It also reduces the feeling of achievement that previous merit badge recipients may have. If the merit badge requirements are not met, then the merit badge should not be awarded. If a counselor has an issue with a merit badge requirement (for whatever reason), then he should make his issues known and see if there is enough support to change the requirements. To haphazardly decide to let someone “slide” on a requirement because of the counselor’s viewpoint puts into question whether that person should be a counselor to begin with. You are a registered counselor for the organization and therefore should intend to support their official requirements. It is their merit badge, not yours…
I think you may eventually be able to get an “official answer”, but doubt it could be much different from what I expressed - then again I have my own biases.
Anyone who is working with youths, whether Boy Scouts or not, take heart in the wonderful joys of passing on a sport that you love.
Many seeds that are planted never grow, but just one flower resulting from the work can only be viewed as success. Continue to plant the seeds…
Halfhitch

4

I’ve only been at this a couple of seasons but I don’t think I could get that badge by those standards. Heck, I think I still have a fly in the back of my arm from last year.

[This message has been edited by mwebb (edited 29 July 2005).]

5

JC,
I believe that halfhitch’s views pretty much some up Boy Scout policy.
From my short stint as a Scout leader, I didn’t get the idea that they were very flexable about this sort of thing.
I bit my tongue and kept my opinions to my self many times for the sake my son and the other boys.
I believe the Boy Scouts are a great oganization, and I give them a donation every year, but I think some of thier policys are outdated and should be changed.
If they get tossed out of FT.AP Hill before the next jamboree, so be it.

“Nick’s heart tightened as the trout moved. He felt all the old feeling” …Ernest Hemingway

[This message has been edited by dudley (edited 29 July 2005).]

6

Jc–I have been involved in scouting since I attended the first Jamboree in Washington DC in 1937.

A merit badge counsellor for many years. Contrary to those that follow the rules to the letter I was told to use my discretion in some matters. The fishing badge stated to tell how to clean and cook one fish–this was also changed last year to clean and cook the fish as called for in the fly fishing badge. Think of having 20 clean and cook bluegills-----

So I sent off a letter and the official reply was to use my discretion–that the wording was a form of learning survival training. I was told to show how to clean a fish and most scouts do know how to cook.

The ff merit badge was brought about thru the FFF and the writers now feel there should have been two badges --a fly fishing and a fly tying.

You don’t have to be a counsellor to teach the ff merit badge–It is only required to sign the final papers after testing and one will be available at most meetings. A counsellor form is available at a scout office–easy to fill out for a background check.

To date I personally have taught over 100 scouts and tested half that amount. More this fall when school begins.

Bill

7

As a scouter and merit badge counselor. You can expand on the requirements ,but not delete any. One of the things I like about scouting is that one actually has to complete the requirements to succeed. When my son received his Eagle rank he had 4 partial merit badges that he had started and not completed the requirements.(None were Eagle required).
I had a section on fly fishing a fly tying before there was a fly fishing merit badge. Some of my best experiences were with the shore lunch portion of the merit badge. It is a good thing for them to see where our food comes from.
It may make a difference that we harvest,kill,comsume from a pond that my father dug, I stocked ,and I regulate the take.
My son is at the Jamboree this week and much to my joy the ACLU move to get them banned was shot down and they now have access in perpetuity.

8

JC,
I am a merit badge counselor.
I think the rules should be followed to the letter, and if you don’t like it, don’t teach it.
The only exception would be for a boy with
a disability (mental, physical or emotional), and they are all welcome in Scouts.

It is however up to the counselor, and some
do “stray from the rules”. This just hurts the boys, they don’t all recieve the same instruction.

Yes, we have cleaned and cooked 20 fish!
Each boy should have the experience, it was a blast! Some counselors kill one fish for the whole group.

BSA states that it is up to the counselor.

I agree with halfhitch and WF.

MW

9

halfhitch and CoachRobb glad to hear you follow the requirements==Here is the answers to my letter to the scout headquarters. One writing to the group in charge. “I think Bill makes a good point.Do you think a slight alteration could be made to accomodate his idea of showing instead of actually doing it. Not much of a problem when working with one scout but a big deal if you have ten or twenty–Your thoughts”.

"We interpret the requirements liberally,so explaining How to clean a fish is OK. The scout should know how its done if needed for survvival,the reason cleaning fish is there at all. We argued for catch and release,but die=hards said scoutng was more fundamental,and finally we liked that. Similarly about the casting requirement,50 feet would seem OK with or without a tight loop. Or how neat the flies be tied. This is a massive set of requirements for one merit badge–there are really three merit badges,casting,tying and entomogy,plus all the rest. So,we must be realistic.

My merit badge books are a 2002 edition,in it they have two mistakes in the glossary. Leader–part of the line that is between the backing and the fly line. Tip top–The ferrule on a fly rod located at the very tip of the rod.

Bill

10

For me it’s always been a simple thing…the line is drawn in the Merit Badge Pamphlet where the requirements are laid out explicitly. As said above, either “follow the requirements or don’t teach”. To put this thought into another activity, what if you only told young people how to drive and they then only had to repeat your words at the MVD? How many more idiots on the road can we stand.

Cleaning a fish can be a problem in C & R concepts but there is an answer - go to the nearest fish market and BUY a fish not yet cleaned. As to catching two species …that can be a tough one in some areas…but, follow the booklet…takes some doing. Nobody said that this badge had to be easy to earn.

What if a Scout wanted to learn Astronomy and lived in the middle of NYC? Do you let him just describe what a constellation looks like 'cause the stars are hard to see with all the bright lights of the city around the Scout. Nope, you follow the rules and use the solution of going to the country where there is no interferring light.

To make a long story short, unless there is a physical or mental reason why the Scout can’t do the task, then he MUST.

This from a guy who has been involved in Scouting since 1946 and held nearly every volunteer position except Council Chairman at one time or another. Amongst others, Council Eagle Board of review for 12 years and you can bet there were a lot of Eagle candidates that were sent back to the drawing board during those years. At the same time, every Eagle who made in during my tenure (and there were hundreds) knew dang well that he had “done the job”.

'nuff said

Snow on the roof but with fire still in the hearth

11

I also believe the rules should be adhered to. People these days are going overboard with this catch and release mania. Yes, I do catch and release but after I have caught what I am going to take home and eat for supper. We ain’t going to run out of fish people! That is why there are “limits” in place and we have game & fish biologists researching and keeping an eye on the fish populations, habitats, and all of the good stuff they learn about in those college courses. I am starting to think that some of these “fly fishing purists” are only one step up from the PETA types. If I stepped on some toes here, I can’t apologize as this is how I feel and right or wrong I have opinions just as all of you do.

Okie in Arizona

12

Ok folks. Let’s really take a look at the implications of this one. Possibly from another point. I’m not a Scout of have I been involved in the Scouting program on any level. Complete outsider here looking in.

Aren’t we all trying to get more people involved in the sport of fly fishing? If we aren’t, shouldn’t we be? I mean this is one of the major reasons we have fly fishing clubs around the country. Heck, it’s one of the biggest reasons we have the FFF.

So a counselor takes a boy scout who is avidly interested in fly fishing, wants to learn to cast and tie flies, buy equipment of his own when he can, and yet he can only cast 45 feet ( I’ll use only this requirement as an example here). Well, as some of you have stated we couldn’t give this young man the merit badge because he doesn’t fulfill the requirements to the letter of the law. The young scout gets discouraged and somehow comes up with the generally held belief that fly fishers are elitist snobs who think they are better than regular fishermen and walks away from the sport. Not only that, he tells anyone who will listen, for many many years to come, about his experience of being denied a merit badge because he could only cast 45 feet when he was 12 or 13 years old. No discretion allowed???

Think about why we’re hanging out here in the first place. We want to teach each other. Share techniques and tips. Help each other cast better, catch more fish, and have a more enjoyable time doing it. What about applying the letter of the law to all of us around here? How many of the fly fishers here can cast 50 feet? Maybe a better question would be how many of you could cast 50 feet when you were 12 or 13 years old?

The idea of this program is stated to be teaching survival skills. Certainly knowing how to kill and clean a fish should be part of survival training. Does this really need to be part of the fly fishing merit badge?

Let’s not drive young people away from this sport by applying the absolute letter of the law here. Let’s get these young people off on the right foot by getting them interested in the sport and giving them the desire to improve and learn more about fly fishing the rest of their lives.

And I don’t want to see any of you letter of the law types driving even one mile per hour over the posted speed ever…

These are the idle thoughts that posses a man’s mind when he’s not able to fish.

13

Good post there Satchel, lol. Got me. I see your point. I just get my hackles up when I hear people whining about actually keeping and cleaning a fish you catch. I still think the standards for the badge should still be met as written, but I agree that the absolute last thing we want is a discouraged boy disallusioned with fly fishing. A kid really doesn’t need to be able to make a 50 foot cast to catch a fish. The two species deal makes it more challenging and could probably be changed to just 2 fish instead as bluegill are very easy to catch and there is no need to cast long distances to catch a couple. The main idea should be to get them out there, casting, learning the basics of fly fishing, and developing confidence. If the confidence is there, then they can do anything, in a survival situation or otherwise. I definately believe a boy should know how to clean a fish too which is very simple once its explained and they have cleaned one or two. Overall I don’t think the standards for earning this badge are way out of line as long as the kids have someone giving them some basic instruction and paying attention to them. Now if they had to catch 2 different species of wild trout out of a mountain stream, that might be a different story. Anyway, if we don’t follow the guidelines to the “t” for earning this badge, why even have standards at all? If enough people disagree with the standards it should be taken through the proper channels and possibly changed that way. I think giving leeway on this one badge will do a lot of damage to the whole Boy Scout badge earning system and will carry over to the other badges. It ain’t supposed to be easy, thats why they call it “earning” a badge.

Okie in Arizona

14

This is really an interesting discussion but I think we should differentiate between what “our goals” are and the BSA requirements for a merit badge. If you’re associated in any way with FAOL, then I have no doubt that the promotion and growth of the sport is a very big concern. From what I have “heard” on this forum, that is being done constantly through many programs (either formal or informal) depending on the resources and opportunities available. While the points and concerns made by people posting are legitimate opinions (and very much have been raised by myself and others)on what might be suggested as changes to the merit badge requirements, the fact remains the requirements are stated. With that in mind any honest concerns should be made to express the reasoning for changing the requirements and if it is deemed necessary, then they could be amended. Until that occurs, the requirements remain as written. The merit badge requirements are reviewed and updated every few years to accommodate such things.
The goals of BSA are different from TU and FFF and other organizations. While TU and FFF are very much interested in the education and growth of the sport, BSA may have differing objectives. Those objectives could be that a Scout developes a certain level of knowledge and proficiency within the flyfishing discipline. The BSA program touches many topics with over a hundred merit badges and other advancement skills. Their primary interest may not be the growth of the sport, but an opportunity for a Scout to experience it and learn from it. A growing interest within that sport (or any merit badge topic) is probably considered an opportunity for that Scout to decide to extend his knowledge beyond the badge requirements and maybe take up the sport more seriously in the future.
The program, as I see it, works quite well. It continually requires review and input as to what may make it better or more current. For me personally, a red flag is raised when any “softening” of requirements is suggested. I guess I am just too conservative (and a little bit old) to embrace changes without some skepticism. If it’s broke - let’s fix it and go on. First, decide if it’s broken - which may be only an opinion and not something so cut-and-dry that it is obvious. If you have concerns about the requirements, let BSA know it, or otherwise criticism without the intent to actually assist in a positive fashion is detrimental to every party involved.
I hope I come across as not being confrontational with anyone in this discussion as that is not my intent. Such disussions are indeed thought provoking and beneficial and I would hope everyone does not agree on everything (wouldn’t that be boring…). Maybe I have seen BSA “attacked” on many fronts in recent years and I very much embrace the traditions and legacy of Scouting as very positive teachings for young men (and in some cases young ladies with Venture Crews now being coed Scouting - see, they do change things!). Many thanks for allowing me to express myself on these matters and I fully embrace ideas and suggestions that may differ from my own.

15

I agree with all of you.
The rules must be followed, and the objective is to have FUN!
But…If a boy can’t meet the requirements he can not receive the badge.
Also, the boys have 1 year to complete
all the requirements. Some badges can not be completed in “one sitting, one week or
even one month”.

Personal Fitness merit badge takes a minimum
of 12 weeks to complete.
Presonal Management merit badge takes 30 days or more and involves banking, risk management, credit reports, employment, taxes etc.

So as a scout leader, it is my job to make sure a boy is able to do the merit badge.
Some merit badges are not for younger boys.
I don’t know of a 12 year old that could
complete Personal Management, so I would not set him up for failure and allow him to do it.

Wilderness Survival - “build a shelter and spend a night in your shelter”. Had a young boy to scared to sleep in his shelter (this was when the Blair Witch movie came out).
Told him to try again next year. He did,
and completed the requirement.

There is no length of casting requirement
for fly fishing. You just have to cast.
If you get the fly out in front of you,
that is a cast! As far as the fly tie part,
there were some scary looking ones, but they did the best they could, had fun and caught fish with them!

MW

16

I’ll ring in from the vantage point of someone who entered Cub Scouting in 1956, earned my Eagle Award and Vigil Honor along the way, and has served as counselor for various badges, Ast SM, District and Council Committeeperson, Youth and Adult Campstaff, and earned National Camp School certification in Project Cope.

The changes in our culture and society over the last half century have made their impact on Scouting. Major problems have been the increase in litigation and resulting insurance cost increases, lack of adult leaders, rise of political correctness, increasing belief that every child must succeed at every thing so that the program must be restructured to prevent hurt feelings, and, sadly, the changing nature of Scouting to reflect the program as a desire for numbers instead of content.

We can’t teach the old pioneering skills anymore because of environmental and legal concerns.

Scouting even had a period when the Eagle Award requirements were weakened to remove Swimming and Lifesaving Merit Badges from the requirements to allow more boys to earn the Eagle Award. Thankfully, this has been corrected. But the belief that failure will scar a child for life still remains.

Of course, I want to see boys learn and participate in Scouting. But I do not want to see rank or merit badge requirements altered because they are too hard. The requirements are meant to challenge the boys. A First Aid merit badge course that glosses over or omits the more difficult requirements is dangerous. A Lifesaving course that omits or weakens requirements is not only worthless as a learning program but also dangerous to the Scout.

Boy Scouting was not developed to be a program that made everyone feel equal and good about their selves. It was designed on a para-military design to teach skills, encourage personal growth, and develop a group of boys who were considered a cut above the pack, potential leaders. There are still numerous chances within Scouting to encourage a level of elitism among the Scouts. Despite the influx of today’s practices of teaching to the low end of the group as if it were the top, Scouting can still instill a drive for excellence, for learning, and for leadership.

Requirements for Flyfishing are, likely, poorly constructed and should have been written as two or more badges. However, they are not unobtainable.

Signalling, Cooking, Pioneering, Fishing, Hiking, Camping, Swimming, and Lifesaving have de-railed many boys from earning rank above 1st Class. The Eagle Award has traditonally been earned by about 10% of all youth entering Scouts. I’m not worried about Flyfishing creating an elitism among Scouts who earn it. Like all merit badges, it should foster some elitism.

aka Cap’n Yid.

Stev Lenon, 91B20’68-'69
When the dawn came up like thunder

17

FLY TYING As to the way their flies look—At scout camp I had nine in one class. With 100 hooks in the tray, we tied and at the end of the class 9 scouts used 95 hooks. They just dont want to stop. Good thing I dont have to buy them.

One tied the weirdest with different color maraboo,second cast caught a 2 1/2 pound bass. I made sure he tied me a copy.

When fishing with a group one asked if I ever caught a bullfrog on a tly–I said yes, you dangle the fly in front of their face. Soon we had 6 big frogs and if it wasn’t for them being the owners pets we would have cleaned and cooked for sure.

Bill

[This message has been edited by William Fitzgerald (edited 30 July 2005).]

18

I was just at the BSA National Jamboree and volunteered to help for the Fly Fishing Merit Badge by assisting with fly tying (what a great enthusiatic bunch of young men who ALL said thank you!!). The lake being used on Ft AP HIll has been stocked with several thousand channel cats who take a fly. They keep the fish, report to a cleaning station for cleaning and then to a cooking station to cook the fish. As for the comment regarding banning Scouts from AP Hill, I am appalled and pray that we can continue to raise and train the young men of the world in leadership and ethics without the interference of the likes of the ACLU!!
Mike(ASM)

19

There was an overwhelming vote in congress against the ACLU request to stop scouting from using the government fort for future janborees

Bill

20

I have been involved in Scouting for many years. Started in Cubs and eventually earned my Eagle award in May of 1952.
Liz and I had the opportunity to become involved on the National level last year. We donated a sizeable amount of top quality hackle which went in from the top and was distributed down through the councils and camps. I have been fascinated with the e-mails and letters we have received back. It blows my mind at the huge number of tiers that teach the merit badge. The count we received this past January was over 7,500 young men completed the merit badge, using our free hackle during the year of 2004.
This is an ongoing thing for we here at Conranch. The numbers are not in yet for 2005 but sounds like it will pass the numbers of last year.
I was invited to attend the Scout Executive Fish In in New Mexico (Philmount Scout Ranch) last Sept. There were about 200 Executives attending/fly fishing that gathering. What an experience.
If you have or want to make the time to teach, there is always room for one more teacher. It gives one a very good feeling. Try it, you just may enjoy the time spent and who knows how far this Fly Fishing/Tying will reach in our present day mixed signals to our Youth.
Denny

Denny
Denny@conranch.com
Co-Owner Conranch Hackles