Orvis does it again

[Arctic Grayling]

Hi there Arctic. Fun post huh?
I am covered on the Plastic rods, but I have got some killer glass and a bamboo to build this fall. Just haven't sat down to put them together. Got a killer reels seat
WHICH BY THE WAY, where do you get the Helios reel seat for $15. That would have been my choice, but the ones I found were a bit more money.

Have a new Glass/Plastic blank that is AWESOME!!!! Can't wait to put it together and go drown a fly WITH MY UPPER END LINE

But Goddess????? You're building rods now too???? Isn't that going to upset the division of labor in the household where Mojo builds the rods and you tie the flies?????

If you are building rods now too, won't you have to expand the rod collection out of the waste basket in the closet???? You might even have to add on another room to the house just to store your rods!!!! If that happens, there goes fishing next summer!!!!

Talk about snobs!!! You should have heard the abuse I took for seven days when the Aussie saw a Ugly Stick spinning rod in the back of my truck!!!! I really had him wondering when I dug out the Ugly Stick hat!!!! Hey! Ya got to do what it takes to fill the freezer for winter!!!! Is that one step above or below chasing sockeye with a dip net?????

[Fly Goddess]

AG I am trying to move from that waste basket to that 50 Gal. drum I have out back.

I wanted to add one more thing that has nothing to do with the original post, but we lost that a long time ago.
Why is it every one thinks FAST = Graphite. I know plastic is faster than glass or bamboo, but I have many FULL flex plastic. The Trout Bum, One Once, and everyones fav...the Far and Fine, also the JWF.
I only have one FAST plastic...the rest are medium to full.

Bamboozle... we were talking about the same thing you posted last night, but you wrote it so perfect.
Here is one for all....why is it you can have two houses...both identical and on the same amount of land, but one is on the west side of town and the other on the east. One will be twice as much all due to location.

[nowindknots]

We all want - no - need validation for our decisions. Seemingly, the more those decisions cost, the greater the need for validation?

I've seen exactly the same exchanges on kayaking boards.

Hobie owners complain they always get bashed. A thread is started by a Hobie owner citing some new kayak release or life vest or whatever.

Someone posts about a limitation or personal dislike of a Hobie feature, and BOOM the Hobie guys come on like gangbusters defending their purchase, and slighting all who have not seen the Light. Of course the counter is what a schlum opting for the most expensive ride around and not getting the OK or Ultimate or XYZ which is clearly superior, and it degenerates from there.

The sad part is they are all paddling the best craft for them at that point in their lives.

It's not worse in fly fishing. It just hurts more because we are all so personally passionate about why we fly fish.

Now where did I stow that old Heddon Pal? I need to string it up for tomorrow.

Jim

[D. Micus]

Just don't get me started on the abel disco painted reels!!!!!!

[nowindknots]

Abel - schmable

http://fiberglassflyrodders.yuku.com...h-my-reel.html

Jim

[Mojo]

Abel - schmable

http://fiberglassflyrodders.yuku.com...h-my-reel.html

Jim

If someone want's that done to a reel, more power to them. I'm all for it. Kind of makes a reel totally customized one of a kind.

[Bass_Bug]

Like more often than not, this thread has deviated so far from the original topic, most of the replies are totally irrelevant (to the original topic)

I'm not an Orvis basher (I own a few items with the Orvis logo) I was merely pointing out a few things I thought were bad marketing choices by Orvis in THIS story, not in general. Like making a statement that they are downgrading certain parts, like the ReCOIL guides. ReCOIL guides are in the middle of the (retail) prices range, nothing I would call Ferrari jewelry. I've made a few rod for myself and I'll only use ReCOIL, because they makes sense. I'm surprised they are not standard with all rod manufacturers now days. But my point was that for a $500 rod, I would expect better than low end parts on it. The really bad part here is that they are advertising this fact. THATS the bad marketing part of it, the worst part is the measly savings this change nets for them.

The biggest problem I had with Zach's story was the quote "...they're built on the exact same tapering and scrim technology as the Helios rods, with many of the exact same mandrels used as forms."

Thats great I guess that they can offer a rod for $200 less than a nearly identical model, at least Identical in action. Isn't that why buyers of this class of rods buys them in the first place? Doesn't anyone else want to ask, "So what makes the Helios cost $700 if both are made on the same mandrels with the same scrim, isn't that the same blank then?" Isn't the proprietary graphite formula and taper the bulk of what your paying for since you cant get it from anyone else?

Ok before someone pipes up with "yea, but it's not as light". I only read "....the rods will be slightly heavier". I don't suppose we know what the weights are, for like (length & line wt) rods? 1/4oz, 1/2oz difference perhaps? I think it's safe to say the guide difference probably didn't even register on the scale. The reel seat? Unless they went to cast iron, did that make more than a 1/4 oz difference? Does anyone even KNOW what the specs are on the reel seats? I like like to see just how many people can differentiate that subtle of a change with a strung rod .

As for snobs. Having any particular gear does not make one a snob, it's when they try to tell you that you have to use what they're using or you'll never be as good. we like what we like, and that is all subjective. If we all like the same thing, there would only be one manufacturer with a very limited line of products.

Buy what you want, I do. Tell us what you like and what you don't like. We all DO like to hear REVIEWS of products. But when it comes to telling me what I myself would like because YOU like it? Unless you've seen me cast and know the water I fish, shut the h3ll up, you have no idea what would work or not work for me.

[nowindknots]

Snipping from the original post:


"I thought this is pretty big:.......Perhaps sensing that the economy is not quite what it once was......series of very good decisions...........reach of the masses...........$495 for all freshwater models...........exact same tapering and scrim technology............cut almost $200 off the price..........eliminating a lot of the Ferrari-level jewelry..........Cadillac class..........slightly heavier........akin to the premium models offered by other companies........in time for Christmas.........to offer a little editorial..........still a premium rod........filling in a gap.........great blank design.......... the market certainly agrees...........this is a very intelligent move..........pushing the price envelope..........consolidating technological advances and putting more rods in more hands."

With the exception of Dave's obvious attempts to derail, all the responses are salient to whether it is big, or a good decision, or within the reach of the masses, whether the price delta is warranted, whether it is indeed a great design, or even wanted by John Q Public.

Perhaps if the original post would have simply stated the facts rather than propping up the action and further editorializing, the thread would have been different.

Jim

[D. Micus]

Ah, Jim, it seemed like a time for levity. So I'll be serious for a moment. I worked for orvis for a bit. love their rods (though i don't think they really think through their salt water rods--small stripping guides, etc, still the blank is excellent). i think that they, orvis, are in that corporate trap of continually needing to produce a new product, whether one is warranted or not. so a customer goes and spends 600 for a zero g and the very next year they come out with the helios (an amazing rod by the way. when i picked up the rod tube i was convinced it was empty. and i think the zero g was the most accurate rod i ever cast, and if i was a dedicated bone/permit fisher it would be the only rod i owned). we who worked there used to always scratch out heads at the amount of different fishing vests we sold, and always felt we needed three of two models--light and heavier, and cheap, medium and high priced., instead of the 20 we had with a new model coming in every other month.

but i really do think it is admirable that they still sell fishing equipment--it was a very small part of the overall business. I believe they were the first to offer the warranty (and i know there's controversy about that but i'm for it), and i have always found their customer service to be way beyond excellent. i once broke a reel in the middle of striper season and rather than have me wait for the repair they sent me a new one. exact same thing happened with my spey rod (and they sent me a better model!), and, as i said before, they swapped a 5 wt helios that i had gotten for free for a 9 wt. when i moved to saudi arabia at no charge. all of this long before, and long after, i worked there. so....great product and great service, a price line for everyone, and also a commitment to conservation. what is there to complain about?

[Fly Goddess]

The biggest problem I had with Zach's story was the quote
"...they're built on the exact same tapering and scrim technology as the Helios rods, with many of the exact same mandrels used as forms."


They have been doing this for YEARS. Like I said, the T3 was a $645. rod when it first came out.


As for snobs. Having any particular gear does not make one a snob, it's when they try to tell you that you have to use what they're using or you'll never be as good. we like what we like, and that is all subjective. If we all like the same thing, there would only be one manufacturer with a very limited line of products.

This statement is very right on, except, it is the .......people with the INEXPENSIVE rods doing the judging Or is it JUSTIFYING?
And then the labeling by Bass was totally out of context...

I am done with this thread for sure. Unless AG wants to talk some more LOL