I don’t understand overlining a rod. In my own experience, it hurts my casting and doesn’t help with anything but near casts with heavy flies. To specificaly over line for this purpose would be very specialized and I would only do it if I had another line and reel for another rod, in which case I would probably use the heavier rod anyway. If anything I would tend to under line a rod to handle more line in the air if distance is needed. Does anyone have any opinions on this matter?
First up, as described in the link above, sometimes the manufacturers just arent consistent with their ratings.
Ive never personally had to overline a rod, but the most common excuse Ive heard is to help load the rod for short casting, or for punching into the wind.
Of course, if your rod is rated incorrectly as per the CCS you may need to accommodate this.
My 5wt CD XLS has the ERN of a 7wt, but I dont find any probs loading with a 5wt ED.
People often overline, say their 6wt rods with a WF7 to battle the dreaded Nor Wester, but to be honest, a fast moving 5 wt can cut through the wind just as easily when thrown on a matching rod ? a 5wt presents less surface area to be pushed around in the breeze than say a 7wt.
Its like those wee egg slicer thingees. The very fine wires cut through the egg with little resistance leaving a neat job? Now try this with a tow rope!
Why overline? The heavier line weight helps to load (flex) the rod more deeply providing the potential for line speed of higher velocity. With a crisp, efficient stop, the rod straightens and all that stored energy (providing an effective stop was made) is transferred into the line, energising it more so than if the rod was only bent fractionally. Your rod tip moves its fastest as it unloads and passes through its natural straightened position (RSP = Rod Straight Position). The faster your rod tip is travelling at this point, the faster your line will travel.
The most important thing one can do into a headwind is stop hard. Anchor that rod so that it can unload efficiently through RSP. Accelerate fast (but smooth!!!) into a hard stop, and really force a deep bend into that rod. The result is amazing line speed!
Case in point. Paul (Arden) and I on the Oreti. Paul punching a 5wt further and faster than I with a 7wt (only short casts were actually needed, but I started showing off, so he put me in my place…). I relied on the heavier line / rod weight to punch through the wind, but Pauls superior acceleration of the rod throughout his stroke, a well timed, explosive haul and overall deeper rod load saw his line straightening much more effectively.
People overline because it helps them load the rod more efficiently!
? For short casts
? for windy conditions
? for distance.
Like a bow and arrow - the deeper you draw the bow, the faster it will sling the arrow. Overlining your rod for casting purposes is a band-aid solution for casting form, but one we?ll let pass.
TL
Chris
Lets say I make fly rods. Lots of them. In fact, lets say I’m one of the biggest in the world. What would be one of the things that allowed me to get this big and keeps me here? One would be a consistent rating on my rods. If I get them wrong and guys buy a 5wt line for my 5wt rated rod only to find out I am wrong, I will not be on top long or ever even get there. I see no reason to mark my rods purposely high or low and for what it costs to engineer and design my rods, I darn well want them rated right. The idea that rod makers often aren’t smart enough or are too lazy or crooked to get them right just does not make it with me. So far I have never found a rod that did not well handle the line weight marked on it. It do allow that it is a feel and falls to the rod designer. Subjective, yes. But no less valid.
The 5 wt Sage TCR has the effective rod number of most 7 weights… Sage do alright on todays market 8)
In my reasoning, if a 5wt has a 7wt rating, it may have been made to accomodate heavier sinking or sink tip lines. Or the rod was made to handle more line in the air than just the front taper of the line. Or a combination of both. That would make it a specialized rod for a specific application (deep or distance fishing). Not sure if that is true of the TCR, just my logic.
Assuming the line and rod are corretly weighted and rated I still don’t know why you would overline. And to generally say that overlining will increase distance could hinder a lot of beginners that don’t know the physics of a cast and relationship between rods and lines. This may be true for specific rod and line combinations, but shouldn’t be portraded as a rule.
Short casts I understand, but Short casts aren’t hard to make, and having another line and spool for a rod just for short casts doesn’t make much sense to me.
I have never tried overlining for wind. But if it is too windy for me to cast comfortably, I usually search out a place to fish with less wind. And again having anther line and spool with a heavier line still seems a bit excessive for just for “dreaded” wind.
You say overlining would better load a rod for distance. But unless you are loading with less line out I don’t see the advatage. Rods are made with a “sweet spot” flex right? So they perform best with just the right amount of flex; no more, no less. This would account for the wt rating on the rod. Otherwise, anyone could use a 4wt rod with a 10wt line and toss 110 ft of line without a hitch.
Case in point. I have a 3wt with a 3wt DTF line. I can cast that line much farther than when I put my cousins 4wt WFF line on my 3wt. They are both orvis wonderlines. My father have an 8wt rod that I set up with a 7wt DTF cortland 333 line for salmon and steelhead. I can easily cast the whole line with the underlined setup. I can false cast with more line in the air and end up shooting the last 40ft or so with the final cast. I put my WFF 9wt Orvis striper taper on it and I max out at about 60ft. Can’t even attempt to keep as much line in the air with the overlined setup. Put that line on my 9wt rod and I and another 15 ft to my cast.
So, in my opinion, on the lines and rods I have cast that have been overlined, Distance does not improve with a heavier line, but actually is hurt by a heavier wt line than is rated for that rod.
I again will mention that a heavier line does help me with turning over larger or heavily weighted flies. I can only cast them about as far as with a correct wt line, but my accuracy increases as does my speed of a pick up put down cast. As the extra weight in the lines pulls the fly free of the water more easily and I can shoot the line a bit farther with the single backcast. But this is a specialized type of fishing and not a general rule.
I don’t think it’s a matter of the rod makers marking them wrong.
I think it’s a matter of tuning the rod to your casting style, or how you want to use the rods.
Too many different people casting the rod, and too many diffeernt waters to fish for the rod to be maked perfect for everybody.
I frequently overline my rod for certain types of fly fishing.
For instance, when nymphing in a river. Nymphing is a very productive way to catch fish year round, but the way it is rigged, it makes for sloppy casting. There are too many hinge points on the leader to allow false casting, or if you do you end up with a mess. So, I will overline my rod by one line size. This allows me to have more weight out past the tip of the rod to allow the rod to load up faster when making my cast to relocate my nymphs. The extra weight also allows for a better reach cast and a larger mend when the flies first hit the water.
Also, when fishing a very small creek that has a lot of brush and trees overhanging it and you are only going to make very short casts. The one size up overline helps load up the rod even if you only have 5 feet of line plus the leader out past the rod tip.
Then there are the very windy days on the water in Eastern Washington or Western Montana when dry flying. One line size up adds a lot more weight to the rod, allowing a heavier load on the rod and a better cast to fight the wind. At least it does for me.
As indicated by some of the others, each person casts differently and sometimes a heavier line matches their casting style better than the lighter line.
Larry 
But wait, what about fly rods that have multiple line ratings? I had a 5/6 once and I still have an old Walton Powell glass rod that is rated 3/4/5 and I’ve seen plenty of rods marked with at least two flyline ratings.
Cheers,
MontanaMoose
Here we go again. This type of post is going to go on forever. I used to worry a lot about this kind of stuff, and I even did empirical and mathematical analysis until I was convinced I understood it. I sent my opinions to someone I consider a friend and he basically said this.
Why are you so worried about why it happens the way it does. Just go out and get a good instructor and learn how and do it. Let the joy be in the doing. Good advice. And so I?ll add another thread to it.
Go down to your local fly shop and cast a rod of the size and shape you fancy. Cast it at the distance you will be doing most of your casting. If it ?feels? a little stiff, go up a line. If it feels a little wimpy, go down a line. Then ignore all the rest of these threads.
Castwell is right. All rods rated 6 will probably cast reasonably with a 6 weight line. In fact they will cast reasonably with a 5 or a 7 weight. It all depends on how you would like your rod to ?feel? when you do your thing. And there are stiff 6 weights and softer ones that will feel slightly different. But all will cast reasonably well with a 6 weight line.
But if you are driven, here?s where to go. Go find out about the CCS system. Or read the stuff I wrote on my website (www.HATofMichigan.org). But be aware, all that really matters is the strength of the rod (ERN in CCS jargon), the length of the rod, and the weight of the line. Everything else fades to smoke and mirrors in comparison to these three simple little characteristics.
I am amazed at how anal retentive people get in fly fishing. I always thought the sport was for relaxation and recreation and enjoyment. Why make a JOB out of it? I will trust the major rodmakers to know how to build a rod and correctly design it for the proper weight of line. I think there is way too much snobbery and nitpicking every aspect of the sport to death. If you find something you like and feel comfortable using–just do it.
Ditchdoc I agree with you 100%. Its all about customising your gear to suit your needs, not that of others, do what best suits you and your style of casting and type of fishing.
Cheers
I keep casting and learning but have not developed a style yet. Sure hope I do soon, been a long time coming! 8)
That wouldn’t include over/underlining?
Gramps,
Looks like ya need a bigger spoon…perhaps a canoe paddle… :lol:
I do have an opinion on it,But to keep from a long response I will not say it.
F&T, Sometimes it is hard for me to type what I really think; and sometimes I just don’t really know what I think. 8)
Fly rod makers build these incredible casting rods that enable us to aerialize 40-50 feet of line and shoot line out 70 feet or so. The thing is, we use them to fish with. Most of the fish I catch are probably within 20 feet.
It just doesn’t matter.
It just doesn’t matter.
Good Luck!
Buddy
I come here to read about fly fishing and I think ‘obsessed’ is a much better word. Anal seems so…negative. I’ve heard/read everything that’s been presented here before…a few times, but I’m always looking to learn something new. It would be like playing guitar and being happy with 4 chords. If someone wants to talk about over/underlining, I want to listen. At once I agree with everything posted that’s positive. I don’t say stuff like this often but if someone doesn’t want to read/learn about over/underlining, hey, go fishing instead.
Cheers,
MontanaMoose
all right 'Moosie," just for you, 'cause I like ya. True story as best as I can recall it. We were on the pro-staff thingy with G. Loomis. We were in Gary’s office yacking about stuff and I kinda whined that they had discontinued the great rod, the IMX. New that year was the GLX. Gary said in so many words, ‘just underline a GLX, ya won’t be able to tell the difference’.
Now, you and I both know that there is a major taper difference and other changes between them, but, there ya have it. From the man himself, underline the rod! 8)