I was in need of a new nymph leader for my 7 wt rod. I generally only use it to fish large, heavily weighted stonefly nymphs like JARS, mostly one at a time, but on occasion two at a time, and always under a large thingamabobber.
My old leader was furled out of 2# Berkeley Vanish in a 10-8-6 configuration with proportions of 40% butt section, 30% mid section, and 30 % tip section. A tip ring was incorporated, and 2X tippet was the standard for fishing the big nymphs under an indicator.
Believing that a slimmer profile would work better, i.e. not have so much resistance to letting the fly sink, I opted for an 8-6 configuration of the 2# BV with proportions of 40% butt and 60% mid / tip, with a tip ring incorporated. The finished length of the leader is about 5’8".
I had the chance to fish the new leader for several hours yesterday and was quite satisfied with it. I fished both a single JARS, and a tandem of them with the second fly trailing the first one by about 2’, under the thingamabobber. Total distance from the thingamabobber, which was placed quite close to the butt of the leader, to the trailing nymph was the best part of 12’.
It’s impossible to say that there was a marked improvement of the new leader over the old one. But it is quicker to set up, uses less material, and furls in about the same amount of time. And with satisfactory performance for it’s intended use, that is progress, to my way of thinking.
John
P.S. No tight loops with the 2 fly rig - big open loops and watch your right ear. :roll:
Have had several more days fishing this leader and it continues to perform quite satisfactorily. On a few occasions, I’ve had to break off 10# test 2X tippet, and there has been no damage to leader in doing so.
With a bit of line out and a pretty aggressive double haul, it is possible to throw fairly tight loops with a couple stonefly nymphs under the large thingamabobber. Still, it is a good idea to watch your right ear.
Jack the Thingamabobber is extremely effective in fishing a dead drift, and aiding in depth control. An extremely effective method. John have you ever thought of using a micro swivel on that leader?
Brandon;
I know what a thingamabober is, Junk, sorry John. I just wonder why you would use one with a fluorocarbon leader! I want my wet fly down on the bottom ticking the rocks. If I was using a “Bobber” I would use a mono or thread leader!
Have another glass of Cool Aid.
Your opinion may be that a thingamabobber is “junk”, which makes me wonder if you have ever actually used one ??
I don’t know what kind of “wet” flies you use and are referring to, nor on what kind of stream / river system you are fishing them. But I am fishing “nymphs” which are tied on size 6 2X long hooks and start out with 12-15 wraps of .035" non-lead wire for weight, and are built up from there. My guess is that your “wets” are quite different than my stonefly “nymphs.”
I’ve fished the same basic rig of two big weighted stonefly nymphs under a yarn indicator on a heavy duty thread leader. It was no where near as good as the current version of the fluoro leader described in the opening post - didn’t handle all the weight very well and didn’t help get the flies down where they needed to be. In fact, thread furled leaders big enough to fish the rig I am fishing have a resistance to sinking, both as a characteristic of the material itself being lighter than fluoro and due to the resistance of the greater mass or size or whatever you want to call it to sinking.
Don’t have a clue what you mean by the “cool-aid” remark, but Brandon was right on the mark, so if it’s from drinking cool-aid, perhaps you should try some yourself.
That’s part of it, Brandon. The other part is that the slimmer profile and greater density of the fluoro aid in getting the flies down. Coincidentally, in the long term, using a simple overhand knot to position the thingamabobber on the leader will cause fewer problems with the fluoro leader than with a thread leader.
As indicated in the opening post, the simpler configuration of the new fluoro nymph leader as an advantage over the previous version is an even bigger advantage compared to the old beefed up thread leader I originally used. The new fluoro leader is an 8-6 configuration with proportions of 40% butt and 60% mid / tip. The old thread leader was a 14-12-10 configuration with proportions of 40% butt, 30% mid, and 30% tip. Guess which one sets up and furls more quickly, besides being a better leader for the job ??
Both from an experience and science point of view, I certainly agree with that. I thought most folks who use thread, mono, or fluoro to furl leaders knew that. But now I wonder ??
John like you I thought that everyone knew fluoro sank faster due to it’s density. That is the reason I didn’t state that as a reason for using fluoro. The beauty of furled leaders is you can customize them to do what you want by using different materials, or mixing materials, and changing the taper as well. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience with this leader with us.
John;
A fluorocarbon leader will try to sink an indicator or dry fly attached to the tippet. If it doesn’t the leader will sink making it difficult to make another cast without stripping in line to get the leader back to the surface.
Apparently you missed a point I made in the opening post -
“Total distance from the thingamabobber, which was placed quite close to the butt of the leader, to the trailing nymph was the best part of 12’.”
By “quite close” I mean about 6" from the butt of the leader which is about 6" from the end of the fly line.
I don’t attach or place an indicator on the tippet, and I seldom trail a nymph or wet behind a dry fly. That includes the “hopper / dropper” thing because I figure if I want to fish a hopper I ought to fish a hopper pattern that will catch fish and if I want to nymph I can do it more effectively with an indicator than I can with a fancified bobber. The “hopper / dropper” thing is great for folks who want to bother with it for whatever reason they use it, anything from liking pretty bobbers to maybe catching another fish or two during an outing. Not my thing.
Regarding your point about a sinking leader, my experience must be somewhat different than yours. All my dry fly leaders and tippets submerge ( that is my preference and my intention ) and I don’t find it necessary to strip in line to begin another cast. Just pick it up and cast again.
Fishing with a fast action 7 wt rod / line, even fishing two big nymphs under an indicator, it’s only necessary to strip in some line after a really long drift. If there is more than 30’ or so of line out ( not including the 10-12’ of leader and tippet ), I’ll strip some line in before starting a water haul and employing a high looping forecast before starting my first backcast. If the drift was short enough that I have 30’ or less line out, a water haul is all it takes to get started on the next drift.
John
P.S. A lot of it depends on the water you are fishing, the flies, the rod and line and the set up, let alone personal preference.
Instead of reading about it, you should try it. We use flouro all the time fishing dries on the bighorn, from #16 to #28. No problem with sinking the dries. Much more abrasion resistant. It certainly won’t sink a thingamabobber…
Boomer, I use fluoro tippet for everything but not furled fluorocarbon leaders!
By the way I have fished the Bighorn as well as the Clarks Fork and the Bitterroot on my way to fish the really great rivers in Idaho!
P.S. I’ve also had the honor to spend an afternoon fishing the East Branch of the Bitterroot with John and consider him a close friend.
… about discussions like this is the things that emerge from them, at least for me.
For example, thinking about the “hopper / dropper” thing, it occurred to me that perhaps it masks problems at the same time it seems to solve another “problem.”
If you are fishing a good hopper pattern and it isn’t catching fish, maybe it is because of your presentation rather than the pattern or the fishy. When the fishy refuses the hopper because of the poor presentation, you get a second chance with the trailing fly, whatever it is we’ll call it a nymph. Since nymphs don’t really much “dead drift”, a presentation problem with the hopper doesn’t create a presentation problem with the nymph, in fact, it may enhance the attraction of the nymph to the fishy.
Conversely, if you aren’t fishing a nymph so that it gets in the fishy’s chow line, even a poorly presented hopper gets the fishy’s attention, acts as an attractor, to the point of getting the fishy close enough to the nymph to take a shot at it, a shot it might have passed on given how you intended to present the nymph.
The “problem” it solves is not catching as many fish as you would like to catch. The problem it doesn’t solve is making you a more competent angler, with a hopper only or a nymph only.
Something to think about. Not something I’ve given much thought to before this, because I decided a long time ago, intuitively, that I wasn’t going to go the “hopper / dropper” route. I may use a trailing fly ( thinking in terms of midges, mayflies, and caddis ) to test new waters or to find out what the fish seem to prefer at the time I start fishing. But as soon as I get a read on their preference, if they show one, I’ll go with one fly, and usually do that even if they are taking a mix close to 50-50.
Excellent Jack. I took you post as describing the differential sink rate (as a result of density) related to mono, flouro or thread. The most apparent place I think that would be obvious is small dries, and that’s what I tried to highlight in my post. In my experience, density differences between common leader and tippet materials don’t affect catch rates. What seems to affect catch rates, to a much larger extent, is the ability to get a drag free float. In both dry fly fishing and nymphing, it seems that the people that can cast and mend to achieve a drag free drift or float will have much higher catch rates, using the same flies and fishing the same water, as those that can’t. I carry both mono and flouro, and haven’t been able to discern a difference in hooking rates. To me, the flouro does seem to hold up better to abrasion relater to stream abrasion and especially fish teeth after multiple fish on the same tippet.
