Anybody know if these are the same size and shape? I know they differ in other ways.
Thanks,
Steven
yes they are the same. It is the “STANDARD” hook which Mustad used to base their designation system on. If they’re not EXACTLY the same size/shape they are so close as to not matter.
Thanks. I appreciate the input.
I’ve been reading Mike Valla’s book. It’s kind of inspired me.
His proportions are based on the 94840 rather than the TMC 100.
Funny, I grew up tying dries on the 94840. Not sure what else was available back then…
According to Valla, prior to WWII, the hook of choice was the Allcock brand from England. Valla never goes into why that brand disappeared - my guess would be steel rationing. Mustad was considered inferior by the Dettes.
I haven’t used Mustafd hooks for many years
My local fly shop “back in the day” only carried Mustad. It was decades before the Internet. No real alternative.
I don’t personally know of any tiers today who use Mustads. I’m sure some/many do, but none who I know
The Dettes, Darbees, Christian, Steenrod et al. used wings and tails as long as the entire hooks and hackles 2x the hook gap.
I do wonder if the “accepted” proportions changed to 1x the hook shank for wings and tails and 1.5x the hook gap for hackle because of the introduction of the TMC 100 and similar sized hooks (Dai-ichi, Orvis), which had longer shanks than the 94840.
You are so right. Mustad produces an inferior hook. It’s too heavy, too short in the shank, too long in the point and barb, too wide in the gape, the eyes are frquently unfinished, the steel is too brittle and the hooks break too easily, the hooks are way too dull and need sharpening right out of the box, and lastly they are over-priced! Mustad hooks are so bad that it’s amazing that any trout are actually caught on a fly tyed on a Mustad hook. Thank goodness for the new chemically treated hooks that are proportionately correct, lightweight, bend without breaking, are so sharp that you won’t know you’re hooked until you wonder where your cast went.
Now before any of you get upset, this is all written tongue 'n cheek. The idea that Mustad trout hooks are inferior in any way to the comparative hooks by other manufacturers is a joke.
Not sure where the Dettes opined that Mustad hooks were inferior. Inferior to what and when, if it was actually said, did they offer that opinion?
Allan
No, those proportions were around long before TMC. I think they are close to the suggested proportions in J. Edson Leonard’s book, or maybe another book from the same period. I don’t know the origin of them though.
- Inferior to the Allcock hooks that the Dettes had used previously. I kind of thought this was clear.
- Soon after the war. When I go back home, I’ll try to look up the date of the letter that Valla reproduced.
- This was based on complaints that they had received by customers.
In its reply, Mustad basically opined that the Dettes’ customers were a few cards short of a full deck and refused to take back the couple of thousand hooks Walt wanted to return.
Jay,
Thanks. So no idea what the thinking was behind it?
I use Mustads almost exclusively and search Ebay for what I want, I also trade for Mustads. Allcocks were made until the Germans bomb the plant, it never went back into business.
Mary Dette Clark and her grandson still use Mustads today.
I have 3 of Mary’s flies. Is she still tying?
Here’s Mary’s flies from Hans site. All labeled Mustads. http://www.danica.com/flytier/mdette/mdette.htm Maybe he got it totally wrong 
yes, almost everyday.
Well, that may have been true at that time(say 1940s) but that was quite awhile ago. I’m kinda guessing that since the late 40’s Mustad has not been inferior to any manufacturer. In fact, I believe the Dettes have been using Mustads almost exclusively since about that time. About 10 years ago I did a field test that was viewed by several excellent tyers and a few who many would consider ‘experts’. I was testing the strength of 3 manufacturers’ hooks (same size, and all rated as dry fly 1xf wire), how quickly each hook would bend or break under the same pressure. Low and behold the Mustad proved stronger and was the last one to bend. One manufacturers’ hooks straightened completely and the other company’s hook broke. Mustad wasbent somewhat but not nearly straight. Performed the same test several times with almost the same outcome.
Allan
I doubt it Mark. I know Hans and have flies there too. He is very careful.
Mary may still use them, but I still doubt that a very big percentage of tiers today use Mustad hooks. I see where she now uses a Dyna KIng vise…
Personally, I use all brands of hooks. I have only had a couple occasions of a hook being broken (on rocks) or bent (on rocks) over many years of fishing.
I have read this thread with interest. I’m not a “professional” fly tier but, I tie flies almost every day. I prefer Mustad hooks. I have used TMC, Allen, Gomatsu (sic), Diachi (sic) and some others. When I can determine the Mustad alternative I’ll try to get the Mustads. They have a hook conversion chart that has been referenced on this site a few times. The R50 is the equivalent of the TMC 100 and is the same as the old nomenclature.
I didn’t mean to suggest that there was a problem today (in fact, I’m pretty sure I didn’t). As for the history, it was 1950 and the letter was to the supplier, H.J. Knoll. Dette cited customer complaints about brittleness. He also had his own complaint about the hook eyes not being closed.
H.J. Knoll wrote back saying it had had more complaints regarding the Allcocks it used to supply.
The other interesting thing to me was the Dette gauge (I have a copy that I printed off this site), was based on the Allcock. The 94840 was sized differently. With the Allcock, a size 12 fly took a size 12 hackle. With the 94840, a size 12 fly took a size 10 hackle.
Mustad fly hooks are as good or better quality than anything else out there, and usually not as expensive. This discussion gets reheated periodically on here and other fora. I’ve only been tying for a little more than 30 years, so I don’t have the wealth of experience that some of you do. However, when I was able to scrape together money for REAL fly hooks early on, they were all Mustads, what are referred to as the “Classic” series today. Anyone have any idea how many billions of fish were caught on these horrible, totally inferior hooks before the modern jewelry boutique style hooks of today? Byron, are you joking that you don’t know ANYONE who ties on Mustads?