Hi,
This is a fly I rarely tie (perhaps for obvious reasons). I was looking at various recipes. Many call for the bottom to be clipped. I understand the effect: Causes the fly to float low on the water. However, why do that to this particular fly?
Mine is overdressed - acknowledged…
Thanks,
Byron
In summer clothing:
Looks good Bryon. Your flies always are simply elegant
Byron, all the loop wings I use and most I see in shops around No. Cal are loop wing parachute…I have never seen a commercial loop wing with collar hackle. I know Gary Borger talks about them in his “fishing in the Film” book. I have read accounts that Andre Puyans came up with the loop wing idea, although I don’t know how much weight to give that idea, but in his shop I always found loop wing parachutes never collar type. I do tie and use quite a few loop wing parachutes in 18-24
Wing is way to heavy. The ones I fish are not clipped. Deadly pattern for BWO hatch.
Thanks! Will slim down.
Gary Borger had modified the loop wing by bending the hook for a more natural positioning of the fly on the water. Note that he does cut off the bottom hackle.
http://www.garyborger.com/2011/06/03/loop-wing-dun/
Also not that he uses it ONLY for small dry flies as noted in the passage at the top of pg. 45 from Naturals.
Silver,
Thanks for that. The fly I tied is a size 14. I mentioned that most suggest clipping the bottom. Still not sure why. Also mentioned that I overdressed the fly.
Clipping the bottom would have the fly floating flat on the water?
A PMD version on a size 16 Orvis “ultimate dry fly” hook. Has an upward bend similar to what Borger does by hand?
Even a catskill floats flat on the water. They are supported by the horizontal hackles emanating from the hook, not the hackles pointing down.
That said, flies with the hackle cut off the bottom will tend to “be cocked” more accurately when they land - a la a parachute - then will a fly with a catskill type collar - at least according to Datus Proper in What the Trout Said.
Maybe the loop wing holds a little water - making it more likely to land awkwardly or tilt?
Thanks Steven. I think it is in the Vince Marinaro style of trying to more accurately imitate the real insect. Makes it somewhat similar to the Paraloop style in which the hackle is more to the sides of the fly. Must question the comment on the Catskill style. I believe they did achieve the 3 point stance - tail, hook point, and hackle points. They ride higher in the water than a pattern with the bottom V notched - seems to me.
I think I also read that the V notch was done to get the fly to “cant” or “cock” at a different angle on the water - more like the actual insect?
Byron,
Just noticed, if nothing else, that’s one hel* of a good looking vise.
Allan
Nah, try it yourself. The Catskill’s three point stance is one of flyfishing/flytying’s greatest myths.
Marinaro’s thorax pattern didn’t include the V-notch. Rather it was a large wing centered in the middle of the shank with a two hackle collar tied to make an X. Marinaro thought that it gave a better footprint and would keep the hook out of the water. Maybe Marinaro could do it, but I sure as heck couldn’t.
Mike Lawson’s thorax pattern included the V-notch.
Datus Proper’s “perfect dun” featured an x-wrap of dubbing underneath the shank to split the hackle underneath into what would pretty much be a V-notch. Dick Talleur tried to popularize this a few years ago as “The New Thorax Dun.” It kind of ticked me off that he didn’t acknowledge Datus Proper.
If you haven’t figured it out yet, I think What the Trout Said is the best book on fly design ever written.
Steven,
Thanks for all that. I looked up Lawson’s V notch and it was done to have it ride lower in the water. That is what I suggested in my original post. I just am not sure why (and therefore asked) why on this particular pattern? Why not all flies?
Also, I think Marinaro was able to do what he did by having used two different sized hackles???
Yeah, the larger hackle is tied so tht it criss crosses under the shank closest to the hook point. The idea was that the fly would then tilt forward with the aspect of a real mayfly dun. Thing is all the pictures I’ve ever seen don’t seem to show this, and would be opposite of what Gary Borger does to his hooks.
I think you’re answer still might have to do with water wicking into the wing.
Still, when you think about it, what patterns outside of Marinaro’s thorax dun and the Catskill have not been designed to be low-riders? Lawson thorax, compara-dun and its offshoots and predecessors, parachutes, hackle-stackers have all been designed so that they specifically ride low.
I’m not at all sure the flies were designed to ride low but the design of the fly wouldn’t allow them to ride higher (and drier)
Steven,
I guess this is my question:
If a regularly tied fly (in the catskill style) doesn’t ride “up” on the vertical barbules, then why V clip the bottom to have it ride lower?
Recall, my original post suggested it was clipped in order to ride lower. So why do guides not clip the bottom of their clients’ patterns such as an Adams and other dun patterns. They don’t. And I’m talking about Lawson’s guides as well
Thanks. This is interesting to me.
I think there are likely a few reasons.
First is because everybody believes that a catskill with a full collar floats higher or better. It doesn’t matter what is correct, but what is the belief. Believing doesn’t make it so, but if you read a hundred articles in the mags that Catskills float high on the tips of their hackle and tails while keeping the hook out of the water, you’re going to believe it.
Second, I think some people think that the hackles below the shank hide the hook from the fish - so less refusals.
The third reason is probably subconscious. There are certain things in life out there that we recognize to be “perfect.” They just absolutely look right. Marilyn Monroe, Ferraris, certain Italian shotguns, Catskill dries. You just don’t mess with these things.
Steven,
Perhaps, but the question still remains: Why bother to V clip the hackle if the standard collered hackle doesn’t float any higher.
To notch or not to notch, that is the question:
Is it to:
Aren’t you asking the question backwards? Shouldn’t it be “Why not V-clip the hackle if the standard collared dry doesn’t float any higher?”
I gave the answer’s above.
If you handed me a catskill, I’d tie it on my tippet and cast. If it didn’t land right, I’d clip off the bottom to make sure it did.
In the other thread, I mentioned that this is my go to dry fly for hatches.
The LTD is a loop wing pattern tied with a CDC loop. With the hackle wrapped “inside” the loop, then v-notched on the bottom. The pattern can be fished through the entire hatch, and can be tied without the v-notch. But during the emerger phase it fishes much better when notched. I tie my personal patterns all notched because I have found that across the board it performs much better for me.
The link below shows the tying sequence.