Lead wire and water

All about flies Fly Tying
1

This question may sound silly, but I’ve been wondering something.
From what I’ve seen thus far, flyfishermen & women are pretty environmentally-friendly and aware, and they encourage others in that as well. But I was curious about the use of lead wire for weighting flies and how that fits in with being eco-friendly. Lead wire is in many fly recipes, and sold all over, but I’m slightly confused about the possible ramifications of using lead for fishing. I suppose this would apply to those leads weights used in other types of fishing as well. Maybe the lead isn’t in the water long enough to do any damage as you are fishing, but what if you get it caught in weeds or a fish breaks your line and swims off with it? Isn’t it as poisonous/toxic to the aquatic life as it would be to us?

Thanks!

Karli-Rae

2

The amount of lead lost in any given water body in any year in this manner is going to be miniscule, relative to the total water body; especially if it is a flowing stream. Any lead that would wind up as ‘dissolved’ lead would be measured in parts-per-trillion, or lower. Therefore, it would be safe to say that it is harmless to the environment. The real threat, and danger, has been to bottom feeding waterfowl that ingest it and succumb to lead poisoning. The use of lead split shot has been banned from those waters, mostly in Yellowstone National Park, where this has been determined to be a problem. The use of lead shot by waterfowl hunters has been banned for close to 20 years now for this very same reason; ingestion and then lead poisoning by and of waterfowl.

I do not mean to come across as being sarcastic about your very valid question, but this falls in the same realm as the furor a few years back when one of the major fly fishing magazines ran a full page rear-view color photo of one of the most recognizable western flyshop owner/guides (he had his ‘signature’ hat on) relieving himself in the river. This act was tantamount to having the river declared a Superfund Site in the eyes of many who saw it. None of these ‘watchdogs’ recognized the fact that his contribution was “just a drop in the bucket” (yes, the pun is intended).

Your name infers, to me at least, that you are female and you clearly are a new member to this forum. Let me be among the first to welcome you aboard and to say how nice it is to have another one of the fairer sex among us. We have several other lady members, so you should feel right at home.

Cheers,
aged sage

3

The lead issue is so overstated in the fishing community now, to the point of obsurdity. But I doubt there is any stopping it now. I see the lead wire going away…and it will be replaced by a substitute costing 4 times as much. Nothing will change for the environment. But a handful of “concerned” folk will recieve self-appointed badges on their personal sash for supporting it:^)

4

from the ysnp fishing regs:
Leaded fishing tackle such as leaded split-shot sinkers, weighted jigs (lead molded to a hook), and soft lead-weighted ribbon for
nymph fishing are not allowed Lead core line and heavy (> 4 lb ) downrigger weights used to fish for deep-dwelling lake trout are permissible because they are too large to be ingested by wildlife.

this is due mostly because of the buffalo ford shuffle. people would shuffle along the bottom, dredge up insects, then drop a weighted fly into the schools of fish.

5

Karli-Rae

With the build up of PCB and mercury levels in fish, and documented lead poisoning in wildlife, I think that it’s clear that the world isn’t as big as we sometimes thought-- and that our unintentional actions can impact the environment— so good on ya for asking the question.

There are non-toxic, lead-free alternatives to lead wire for weighting flies, widely available in many fly shops and from on-line shops selling fly tying material.

http://www.jsflyfishing.com/cgi-bin/item/TW-000630-0000/62000/Hareline-Round-Lead-Free-Wire.html

It is a bit more expensive at about 2.60 for 5 yards as opposed to 1.75 or so for 5 yds of lead wire, and it is not quite as dense as lead, but it is safer for wildlife if ingested (though it is after all around a hook, so hopefully the hook doesn’t cause injury). A standard guideline for using wire to weight hooks is that the diameter of the wire should be roughly similar to the thickness of the wire in the shank. Thicker wire for bigger hooks, thinner wire for smaller hooks. There still tends to be more options stocked by many fly shops in lead wire in terms of different thicknesses offered, but more and more shops are offering a wider choice of thicknesses in non-toxic wire.

There are also lead free alternatives to split shot etc. for weighting leaders/tippets.

mark

6

My own personal thoughts on this issue is that it is more of a “political correctness” issue than a real threat. You are right, fly fishers in general are very in tune to our environmnet and we want what is best for the wildlife and us, sometimes people put efforts into one thing where those same efforts would make a much larger impact in other areas. I think that this is one of those. In Wisconsin we have an annual meeting about outdoor issues called our “Conservation Congress” During that meeting several advisory questions are asked of those outdoors people that attend the meeting. It’s not binding, but again it is our Department of Natural resources taking the temperature of the sportmen and women of the state. One question was should we ban lead in fishing. It was soundly rejected.

It’s good to ask the question and I am glad that you are thinking of the environment. Most people just don’t make the connection that lead is in the ground naturally. Lead does make contact with the water now in greater amounts that any fisherman could throw it in the water.

7

What Clay says is true, and can be said for all metals. They just aren’t all found in a single give area. For example, aluminium is the most abundant and widely distributed metal in the soils of the world. Lead is (WAS?) extremely abundant along the upper Pecos River in New Mexico and supported several mines at one time. Tailings from these mines was used to gravel access roads into the Forest Service campgrounds in the area. The EPA, in it’s infinite wisdom, had these roads closed because of concerns about visitors having elevated blood/lead levels to do inhalation of dust from these roads being stirred up by the vehicular traffic on them. When they finally got around to determining the blood/lead levels of the locals, who had resided in the area before the roads were built, they found that those with the longest, and greatest, exposure had blood/ lead levels within the normally accepted range. And so it goes, time and time again. I am not inferring that we should ignore such possibilities; just that we approach the possibilities with a little reasoned judgement. ( I would say ‘common sense’, but these two words have apparently become the ultimate oxymoron.)

Cheers,
aged sage

8

I"m sure that when my 3 small spools of lead wire are used up, will follow suit with some tungsten wire or whatnot. But do it with a bit of resentment, as I feel it’s a usless act. I use tungsten beads now because they are heavier for their size & give a better sink-rate…and I pay more for it. But at least for my dollar I am getting “something” for the additional price.

9

Thanks for your sincere response, and the welcome!

10

Thanks for the helpful advice! And I HAD wondered about knowing which thickness to use, though I think I’ll buy non-lead wire from now on.

Thanks again!

Karli-Rae

11

I think the term ‘lead’ wire is just a hold-over from days gone by. I’m not even sure you can still buy lead wire. All of my wire from Cabelas is ‘non-lead’. Even my beadheads are tungsten, or something similar. Sinkers may still be made of lead (especially homemade ones), but that will probably change. It doesn’t bother me, because the alloys work just as good.

12

Lead wire is still available for those who elect to use it, where it is legal to do so. As a matter of personal choice, I have gone to non-lead wire. Doesn’t seem to change the fishability of the fly, just makes me feel better. It’s a personal choice in most places I believe.

REE

13

As aged Sage said earlier, the biggest issue with lead use in fishing (and hunting) is the ingestion by waterfowl. I personally try to avoid using lead, though I have used it and cannot reallytell a difference in how a fly fishes.

14

With the exception of lead weights that spin fishermen use, I pretty much think that most anything you buy that is fly related is already some type of lead substitute. I have some really old lead that was given to me by an old timer that I’ve never used but you can really tell the difference in the weight of the spools… they are about twice the weight of the stuff we use today that has “lead” written all over it. I think the manufacturers have taken the “lead” out of our hands anyway… except for split shot which I use over and over.

I’ve had the same split shot container for eight years and I don’t think I lost more that three of the shot in that period of time.

15

Hi AlbaSurf,

This subject has come up in the past, and back when it came up once in the past I did some basic calculations. What I found was is that by virtually ANY REASONABLE standard, the amount of lead dissolved in the water is TOTALLY UNDETECTABLE. Any water lead levels that results from lead wire used in fly fishing flies will be present at such a low level as to cause virtually no damage what so ever to fish, humans, or any thing else.

One of the other guys, that posted the last time this came up, had read extensively on the scientific studies of lead poisoning of ducks, and although some events had occured with lead fishing sinkers and fishing line killing ducks, there was no evidence at all of lead poisoning of ducks by lead wire weighted flies.

This is clearly an emotional issue, and there are folks of good conscience on both sides of the issue. However, the science of the matter is clearly entirely on the side that views lead wire in fly tying does not cause damage to the environment.

In my view, those of you who want to use lead wire can do so in good conscience, knowing that no damage will result to the enviroment by doing so. However, again in my opinion, those of you who are bothered by the use of lead wire can use the substitues and should do well using them.

Some may say “lead wire in fly fishing flies might cause damage, and it will not hurt to use the substitutes.” We should not, however, base our actions on things that MIGHT, in some remote circumstance, cause some trivial damage. The evidence is that no such damage has been done. For that reason I agree with those who say “In God we trust, everyone else bring data.”

What I would request, is that you folks on the side against lead wire will listen to the science, and not try to REQUIRE the rest of us to drop it’s use based on your emotions on the issue.

My opinion only.

Thanks and regards,

Gandolf

16

If you buy “lead-free round wire”, get youself a couple of extra scissors. Darn stuff will ruin every tying scissors you have.

17

Thanks Gandolf,

I appreciate the scientific answer!

Michael

18

Metallic lead is very stable in water water. Lead was used as for water pipes since the Roman days and lead based solder was used for copper pipe. Lead oxides can enter water supplies but lead under water only slowly oxidizes depending on the chemical nature of the water; but really, the danger from lead wire in flies and even lead fishing weights for spin and bait casting is not from dissolved lead oxides.

Lead has to be directly ingested, most often this is by birds that feed on fish that may have ingested lead. Most of the time it is loons since they swallow fish whole. If the fish ate bait and broke off with the split shot, the loon will eat the split shot with the fish. Eagles and osprey that tear fish are much less prone to lead poisoning. Lead on the bottom of river systems are very rarely going to be eaten by birds eating fish or by a bird directly eating the lead.

Non lead split shot is very expensive. I got a couple of Dinsmore dispensers of .6 gm shot, about 15 in a tube and the regular price was $8.99, later on sale for $7.99, then $5.99 and then $ 0.99 a tube. That is when I bought it.

I’ve got a lifetime supply of fuse wire, 6 bulk spools in various sizes. I plan to keep using it with a clear conscience. Nothing is as dense or malleable. Pure silver wire is the closest substitute. Tin and Bismuth are not dense enough and they are not malleable. When formed with plasticizers as malleable tin shot, it is even less dense.

Copper wire is the cheapest substitute and is readily available in bulk. Go to an electrical motor repair shop. They use various gauges of copper wire to rewind motors and the spool ends cannot be used so they will either sell them or give them away. I have spools of copper wire form my electric motor rewinding shop.

Here are the specific gravities of some metals in comparison to lead.

Tungsten 19.0
Tantalum 16.6
Lead 11.342
Silver 10.5
Molybdenum 10.2
Bismuth 9.781
Copper 8.89
Nickel 8.85
Monel 8.80
Cobalt 8.71
Iron 7.87
Tin 7.29
Zinc 7.14

19

Tungsten is another toxic metal right up there with Lead, Mercury, Cadmium. None of them should be used, there are suitable “Going Green” replacements on the market… ~Parnelli

20

years back in a fly shop on a very popular river here in Northern California I ask a young man if he stocked lead bb’s. He said the shop no longer sells product that contain lead. They are fighting hard to keep the river(s) clean. I was a bit shocked and asked him if his neoprene waders where two colors… very light from the hip down while being natural above. He replies why yes, they where, how did I know that… I told him the the mines up river of the shop dumped millions of gallons of metal heavy toxic water into the river daily and has for decades…the water is so acidic as to bleach neoprene … I said that banning lead BB’s seems a bit over the top. He looked a bit puzzled and walked away…