Danville's 70 Denier Flymaster 6/0 Waxed

Fishing Furling
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Shortly after I started furling my own thread leaders just over seven years ago, I pretty much settled on Danville 210 Flymaster Plus for my all around leader for fishing dry flies with line weights 3-5. I’ve experimented with several other materials - mono, fluoro, Uni - but always came back to the Danville 210 with a strong preference.

Last week, I got out the 3 wt that I hadn’t fished in quite a while. On it was a Uni leader that Joni gave me several years ago. I fished with that leader a couple days last week and really liked the way it presented / turned over the fly and thought the drift was just dandy. I liked that it had a slimmer, lighter profile than the leaders I’ve been using. But it seemed to me that the Uni leader wanted to sink the dry flies I fished with it, drag them under, after a fairly short drift, at least compared to the drift I get with the Danville leaders I’ve been using.

That went along with my recollection of prior experiences with Uni leaders - that they don’t just submerge, but they sink and want to sink a dry fly. That probably is of no concern for people who treat their leaders with something to keep them floating, but since I like to fish with the leader submerged, it is a major problem for me.

Back to Danville. This time to Danville’s 70 Denier Flymaster 6/0 Waxed.

I decided to use the same proportions that I use on the Danville 210 leaders - 40% butt section, 30% mid section, and 30% tip section. But I upped the configuration from a 10-8-6 to a 16-14-12 by adding three strands per side before starting the 10-8-6 layout. Not something I’ve tried before, but it seemed like it should work. As usual, I incorporated a tip ring before starting the twisting / furling.

With the much lighter thread, even with quite a few more strands, it took about 10% more twists to develop what looked like an appropriate twist and account for the usual reduction of about 18%. It took a similiar increase in the number of countertwists for the power furling.

Off to the creek …

… with the 3 wt and a fresh Duck’s Green Drake, which is an extended body fly tied on a size 14 2X short dry fly hook but is pretty much a size 10 fly in conventional hook size terms. Basically a parachute style fly with a few of my own twists. Fished it off about 4’ of 4X tippet. The fly properly displayed …

… and with another fishy just to be sure it wasn’t a fluke …

Got lucky on the configuration. It has pretty much the profile of the Uni leader Joni gave me and presents / turns over the fly almost as nicely, and does it better with more line out. It is a bit more supple which improves the drift. But more importantly, for me, while the leader submerges, as expected, it does not sink the fly even over a long drift. And it handled all the casts I’ve developed over the years as well as the Danville 210 and the Uni do.

I fished a couple other flies for the field test. An FEB ClackaCaddis dry about the same size as the drake and an FEB Hopper, which is a much larger, heavier, wind resistant fly. The hopper was fishable with the new leader, but it was a bit much. Did catch a couple fishies with it. But for that big a fly a beefier leader would be preferable. Thinking a 20-16-12 configuration, or something in that range might do the trick for the bigger flies.

Anyway, since this turned out to be a successful experiment with a thread that has some advantages over Uni, depending on your priorities, I decided to report the field test.

John

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John,
“Thinking a 20-16-12 configuration, or something in that range might do the trick for the bigger flies.”

Why use all that material…when going to another category of fly…there must be a very suitable material that doesn’t need all those loops?

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… in a 10-8-6 configuration does handle the larger dry flies just dandy.

But the 210 and the 70 are the extremes and I’d like to have something in between. I thought Danville would have a 140 Denier Flymaster but they don’t. One available Danville thread is supposed to be a 150 Denier, which would be suitable size-wise, but it is not one of the Flymaster threads so I am reluctant to go that route if I can get where I want to get with a Flymaster thread.

The step up is not so much for the FEB Hopper size fly, but for others that are in between, like my FEB Skwala and FEB October Caddis. And perhaps I will learn something with another experiment - and that would make for another good day !! The step up also is not all that much more material and that many more loops, at least as I presently envision laying out the leader.

Guess I’ll find out when the battery on my Ryobi variable speed reversible drill is fully charged.

John

P.S. Besides, I have enough of the 210 leaders to last a year or two. If I don’t come up with something new to work on, I’ll get rusty, or my Ryobi will. :roll:

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Do I hear that…I love projects!

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I prefer to call them “experiments.” To complete the experiment, you HAVE to get out on the water and catch fishies. :wink:

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Thanks for the information, Frank.

I didn’t check the Danville site - just talked to the local shop that carries Danville and a couple online vendors. If a beefed up 70 Denier leader doesn’t get it done, I’ll take another look.

John

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… sizing the leader up to a 20-16-12 configuration. Thought I would borrow a diagram posted by Kaboom a while back to facilitate describing how that configuration was laid out.

The above diagram is the basic one I use for a 10-8-6 leader. To size up to the 20-16-12, I started on the butt end post at the lower right of the diagram. Three trips from that post to the butt end post in the upper right of the diagram via the tip post ending at the butt end post at the upper right laid down three strands on each side of the V. Instead of taking two turns between the upper right butt post and the post at the end of the butt section, I took three then proceded to finish the leader as a 10-8-6 EXCEPT I took three turns between the butt end post and the mid section post instead of only two.

The above modifications to the basic layout adds ten strands to the butt section, eight strands to the mid section, and six strands to the tip section. The result is a 20-16-12 configuration with proportions 40% butt section, 30% mid section, and 30% tip section. A tip ring was incorporated before the actual furling process was started.

That all would qualify as a project, but definitely not an experiment. The experiment requires fishing.

So I did.

Fishing it with a medium fast 7’9" Hexagraph for 4/5 with a Rio Selective Trout WF4F line.

There was quite a rain event on the Lochsa yesterday evening and this morning. The river was about as off color as I’ve seen it. It doesn’t really show in the pic, but it was bad enough that most of the larger fish were staying down deep, probably eating a bunch of worms and other bugs washed into the river by the storm run off.

But the smaller fishies did come to play, and a few larger ones too, but not nearly so many as hoped for.

Having said that about the experiment - here is the best part - THIS LEADER IS OUTSTANDING for the mid size flies like the FEB Hopper down to the relatively small drakes. The leader presented / turned over the hopper quite nicely, landed it softly on the water, gave it an excellent drift, and did not sink it even when I held it tight on and against a moderate current. I could actually pull the fly upstream against a light current with leader fully submerged but the fly riding on the surface. Even caught a fishy doing that !!

Not to say that the hopper never went down. In really strong currents, especially where there were seams between different currents, the line would get sucked down, pulling the leader down, and eventually sinking the fly. But that is not on the leader. And a couple times while stripping the submerged fly in fishies caught and ate it. THAT is on the leader, of course. :roll:

All the good things that happened fishing the hopper happened while fishing the smaller flies.

Needless to say, I am delighted with how this experiment turned out. The Danville 70 Denier in the 20-16-12 configuration is going to be the standard dry fly leader for my 4 wt rod. Will need to do some further experimenting to see how it performs with the 3 wt.

John

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John

You got to love an experiment that has results like that. If you would like to try another, I have some of the thread that Frank speaks of. If you would like to try some, shoot me a PM with a snail mail address and I will get a spool or two in the mail.

Brad

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I use the Gutermann thread as well, and the Skala 360 is the same diameter of the 70 denier. It does require a bit more wraps but I don’t mind and it makes a really good leader. If I’m not mistaken though the reason John likes the Fly Master thread is because of its properties in comparison to polyester thread. The Fly Master is pre waxed and wont absorb water like the polyester allowing it to stay in the surface film where the polyester if left untreated will absorb water and sink. My leaders float when I apply the floatant to them to allow them to stay on top. This is why I use polyester though as if left untreated it sinks well, and if treated floats just as good. I do have some leaders made from the Fly Master 70, 140, and 210 denier thread. Sportsmans here in Idaho Falls carries the 140 denier John if you would like I can get you some and snail mail it to you. This was atleast last I checked some time last year!

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… boldly so.

I realize that in some ( rather limited ) situations there are advantages to having a leader that floats, but I just don’t get why so many people insist on a leader that floats in all circumstances and all the bother that goes with it. Especially when the advantages of fishing with a submerged leader are so obvious once you do it. :confused:

John

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Frank -

Thanks for the scientific stuff. I bet even Jack and Brad will appreciate that information. :wink:

I’ve always thought that the prewax on Danville threads was pretty much irrelevant to how little they submerge. That is based on the fact that I use the same leader for hours on end for many, many outings with no perceptible change in how they submerge. Seems like any effect of the prewax would wear off at some point and that would make an observable difference in how they perform.

Not sure why you would dry your leaders after using them. I’ve never bothered with that and have had no problems that I would associate with fishing them hard and putting them away wet.

John

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Had to recall some 25 years in plastics to maybe help with this thread. Polyester is Hydrophobic. Which means It does not absorb water and will be quick to dry. Nylon is Hygroscopic which means it will absorb water (I still have some faint scars on my thumb from trying to mold with “Wet” Nylon, moisture does not like 525 degrees!!). Some precision Nylon parts are actually packaged with a few drops of water to let them “Normalize”. Nylon also can become stronger when normalized.

I did do a search on this subject an found a report from a professor of science that stated exactly the opposite about Nylon?? Lord save us from those that teach!! I present my thumb as proof!

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Gettiing away from the scientists and science for a moment, Brandon found some 140 Denier down in Idaho Falls at the Sportsman’s Warehouse and is sending along a spool of light brown and a spool of tan. Looking forward to furling a 10-8-6 leader with the 140 Denier for comparison to the 70 Denier 20-16-12. Theoritically, it should be virtually identical and perform the same. The advantages will be working with a bit heavier material ( the 70 Denier is a bit tough for me to work with ) and a bit faster lay out time.

Will post the results with the 140 Denier after I have a chance to finish the next “experiment.”

John

P.S. I did some follow up field testing yesterday with the 70 Denier leader and the results were consistently pleasing - except maybe to the fishies.

Some neat pocket water.

And some neat fishies.

Now back to your regularly scheduled scientific chat between Jack and Frank. :frowning:

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… became a reality.

Late last week, while in a Missoula sporting goods store, I overheard a customer ask a sales person if the store carried furled leaders. That lead to a discussion with the customer, and that discussion lead to Danville, and eventually to the denier 140.

Turns out the customer is a long time FAOL BB member. When I mentioned that the 140 was on Cabellas website, he mentioned that he had a Cabellas close by to his home is eastern WA and that he would pick some up for me.

A couple days ago, I furled my standard 10-8-6 configuration in my standard 40% - 30% - 30% proportions. I did miscalculate the number of twists I should use and ended up settling for a leader with less twist and less reduction than I normally furl. A bit disappointed that I didn’t take a little more time.

BUT I fished the 140 yesterday for five hours with a TFO BVK 9’ for 5 wt lined with a Rio Selective Trout II WF4F fishing a size 16 Renegade off about 4-5’ of 4X tippet. The leader was outstanding in all regards, near perfect for the size fly I was fishing. So now I’m wondering if I should continue to make them the way I did the first one, or add some twist and achieve greater reduction ??

The advantages of the denier 140 over the denier 70 were clear from the get-go and through the entire furling process. Much easier handling - the 70 is so fine that it easily snags on the rough skin on my fingers. Much easier and quicker set up with half the strands to accomplish essentially the same weight leader. Less twisting time. Easier to work with incorporating the tip ring and finishing it with a shorb loop on the butt end.

If you aren’t adverse to a thread furled leader that submerges but won’t sink even a small dry fly over a long drift in pretty strong and mixed currents, you might want to try the 140.

John

P.S. The fishing and catching were really good yesterday. Part of that was due to the performance of the leader in presenting the fly.

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John glad to hear you got the 140 thread! I prefer the finer thread. Ithink it gives a tighter furl. No wrong answer just personal prefrence.

Cheers,
Brandon

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Fished the 140 again today for several hours. Fished flies from size 18 Griffith Gnats up to a size 8 or thereabouts FEB Hopper. I really like the way this leader handles that range of flies on the BVK 5 wt lined with a 4 wt line.

BUT I did have one major disappointment. The thread around the incorporated tip ring frayed noticeably after only about nine to ten hours of fishing, and then let go completely when I snagged some foliage on a backcast in rather tight quarters. Lost the tip ring, tippet and fly.

I don’t know if the Flymaster threads aren’t as good as they used to be or if my new Ryobi powered jig is the problem. On most of the leaders I’ve made since building the new jig, the fraying around the tip ring begins much sooner than when I was doing the mechanical thing with a hand crank. If it isn’t the thread, it might be the speed of the twisting process or maybe too much weight to create the tension. The leaders look great and perform just like they did when I built them on the hand cranked jig, but this premature fraying is rather annoying.

If anyone has any ideas about possible causes of the problem, I’d much like to hear them. Thanks.

John

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John, I have been making / fishing my own FL for between 8 to 10 years now. I have never used the rings.
Skip Shorb is a personal friend and when he did the thing on the “Shorb loop”, having one of the original write ups with photos, done by and given to me by Skip, I have used only the Shorb loop on both ends of all my FL.
I have never had any fraying of my different threads I have used. Of course I am not sure if the rings are causing your problem but I might suggest omitting the ring and see if your problem might go away.
I would be happy to send you a copy of the Shorb Loop that I have. I find it far easier to use than some other write ups done by others.

Hope to see you next week.

Denny

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John, I cannot answer your question and this may be a hijack of your thread and I will apologize up front, but, several times you have posted that you have been using the BVK 5wt and using 4wt line on it. Is there a reason for underlining the rod? I am just curious and nothing more…Maybe I can learn something here…

Just asking and nothing more…

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Denny -

I’ve got a pretty simple way to do the Shorb loop and tried it on the tip end when I first got started and always use it on the butt end. I simply prefer tip rings, and up until recently have not had a problem with them, although they always were the first thing to go, but only after a lot of use.

On the new 140 I went so far as to use some lubricant at the tip end thinking it might reduce any tendency to prematurely fray. It obviously didn’t. I do know a technique for adding the tip ring after completing the leader, but I really like the incorporated rings and would rather find a solution to the problem than change what I’ve been doing.

I’m thinking Tuesday or Wednesday next week. Can I reach you via PM, or is there a phone number I can use ?? Also, do you know when DG is going to show up ?? He is one of the long time BB members I would really like to meet.

John

You can reach me by e-mail or PM as I will have my laptop along so I can do admin duties daily.
I’m not sure when DG plans on showing up. He normally comes for the whole week. DG is good people.
denny

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Warren -

I like fast rods that have a good feel. The 5 wt is just fine with a 5 wt line, but for some reason I prefer it with the 4 wt line. I think it is because I’m a really wristy caster and I’m pretty strong in the forearms / wrists and the BVK is pretty light and it has a lot of feel out at the tip and I can just rip it with the 4. A lot of the time I am fishing more than 30-40’ out so I’m getting plenty of line to load the rod.

The thing that has surprised me most is how well it works with the 4 even closer in. Not as smooth and easy as with the 5 wt line, but good enough that I still prefer the 4 for the kind of fishing I have been doing. I’ve wondered if the blank was mismarked as a 5 and is actually a 4 - but Lanny only had it for sale because his original customer thought it was too fast as a 5.

John