Theoretical Distance-Casting Question

[MikeZRed]

Ok, don't ask what got me thinking about this, but somehow I got this question in my head:


As every article for beginning casters states, we use fly line instead of mono so that the fly rod will load and do its thing.. I got that, makes perfect sense, but...

Assuming perfect technique (you know.. the opposite end of the spectrum from me ), is it possible, or would it theoretically be possible, to cast farther than the length of the fly line?

Say we're using a 9ft rod. I *think* that it's still possible to cast if the backing/line connection is at the tip of the rod - the fly line is there to load the rod.

But what if we were 20 ft into the backing? Take off the 9ft of rod and that's 11 ft of backing in the air, plus the 100ft or so of fly line (plus leader, tippet, fly). . .

The weight of the fly line is still there to load the rod, but I'm not sure about that backing...

What do ya'll think? Is that theoretically possible, with "perfect" technique?

(I'm not setting a goal for myself, or anything.. hehe.. just had the question pop into mind.)

-MZR

[Grizzly Wulff]

I know folks who can cast into the backing; I'm not one of them. They don't carry the backing in the air, but rather "shoot" the line which pulls the backing along. Normal fly line are around 90 feet in length and I've seen good casters reach 135 feet or more, so do the math.



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Dan S
"I still don't know why I fish or why other men fish, except that we like it and it makes us think and feel." Roderick Haig-Brown, A River Never Sleeps

[Jim Hatch]

Hi Mike,

I believe the standard fly line averages
around 90 feet. While I'm not sure of
overall records, I have heard of FAOL
members at some competitions casting in
excess of 110 feet and perhaps near 120.
My mind is still the steel trap it always
was, just that it's getting harder to open
in my senior years.*G* Warm regards, Jim

[BigFlatBrook]

See the recent Saltwater thread "Distance", and check out a post by Dudley. There's a link to an article that "classifies" fly casters by how far they can cast.

If that article is to be believed, a "superb" fly caster can throw the fly line plus some backing. If I'm not mistaken, the world record distance cast is well over 200 feet.

Sometime this year, I'm hoping to creep into the fairly good category from the "it's a start" category.

[FK]

The rod is "loaded" or deflected by the casters hand/arm motion, not the fly line. Quicker acceleration = more deflection (loading) and slower accel = less, etc. Try false casting a rod without any line, it deflects (loads),,,,try it faster then slower,,,,your hand/arm motion is causing the bending,,,without a line!

The most efficient weight to cast with a given rod design is within a small window of 35-55ft of fly line outside the rod tip. Additional line (weight or mass) will make it very hard to maintain line speed and form a small loop. You can cast a 3wt line with a 12wt rod and vice versa, not very efficiently of course.

The competition casters will use a 130-140ft fly line for the 5wt category and a very few make a 110-120ft cast, and not consistently.

The longest casts are with shooting heads and a thin mono or braided mono running line. The competition rods are a very special design and would easily shatter if used for actual landing of a fish.

Mark Sedotti uses a factory Scott 9ft 7wt and will cast a shooting head 130-140ft with ease in fishing situations. This is with a 12-15" long fly.

Regards,
FK

[ducksterman]

I don't think you're answering his question....he's talking about having the fly line plus 11 feet of backing aerialized...not shooting that amount.[or more].

[BigFlatBrook]

Ok, this may not answer the question either. But I saw a casting demonstration at the Somerset Fly Fishing show. I can't remember the name of the fly caster, but he was mainly a saltwater type. I looked him up on the internet.

But, I remember that he aerialized a shooting head plus a substantial amount of backing and bounced a 7-inch bucktail off a wall at about the 20 foot mark. I would say the wall was maybe 10-15 feet past the end of the casting pool. He did that using a Barnegat Bay cast from his knees! He called that cast something else, but I can't remember what it was.

I think the casting pool was about 90'. That's a bit of a guess, but if a fly line is is 90', you can kind of tell. He wasn't standing at the edge of the casting pool, anyway.

It's not exactly the same thing, but I would call that an existence proof.

[ducksterman]

BigFlatBrook...maybe we need to define our terms...my understanding is that aerialized means carrying in the air with false casts and then shooting the rest...I'm thinking you are using aerialized to mean shooting in the air.

I believe I saw the same guy...at least the same sort of demo...at Ontario, CA...can't remember his name either ....he was a Sage casting demo person and did all of the above but he shot the backing.

[Fly Goddess]

This was from another post, but talks about distances. I know the line for competition is not the normal line that most of us use. I agree, that a person can cast the 90' of line and that takes the backing out. I don't think that the backing has any loading properties, does that make sense?

Steve Rajeff's accomplishments.
"In the Anglers' Fly Distance event, casters are limited to a 9-foot rod and a shooting taper line with a maximum head length of 31 feet and maximum grain weight of 310 grains (10-weight). The tackle is somewhat specialized but similar to what a Northwest steelheader might use on the Sauk, Skagit, or large rivers of British Columbia. Rajeff holds the U.S. record for this event with a distance of 190 feet.
In the Single-handed Fly Distance event, heavier artillery is allowed with up to a 9'9" rod (specialized rods and blanks are normally used), a minimum shooting taper head length of 49' 3", and maximum line weight of 650 grains. Rajeff holds the U.S. record for this event at 238 feet. What he calls his lifetime best cast was in this event at a competition in South Africa where he launched a cast of 248 feet. However, international rules disallow a cast if wind speed near the time of the cast exceeds 8 mph in any direction and the cast was never recorded.




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she who dies with the most toy's wins.

[ducksterman]

This may address the original question more...it's a Bruce Richards quote...from another thread....

IP: Logged

Bruce Richards
Member posted 24 February 2006 01:47 PM
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Hmm, it appears some misconceptions remain regarding the age old question of DT vs. WF.
Most lines are made to AFFTA weight standards which means that the line must weigh a certain amount in the first 30 ft., excluding any level TIP section. The taper IS included in the weight.

Most DT and WF lines have very similar front tapers, there is no generalization that can be made regarding tapers that would be accurate. Some DTs have short tapers, some long, as do WFs. Assuming that a DT and WF line have the same taper, they will cast exactly the same until the rear taper of the WF line is out of the rod tip. There is no way anyone could tell the difference between these lines except that the WF caster would be holding smaller line in his hand than the DT caster.

The 30 ft. length is often mentioned when talking about roll casting WFs. This length means nothing in most cases, except that it is the length measured. Nearly all WF lines have heads that are longer than 30 ft. Another thing to remember is that roll cast distance must include leader and rod length. A WF line with a 30 ft. head and cast with 9 ft. rod and 9 ft. leader will roll cast effectively to 48 ft. (30+9+9). So, a typical WF line with a 38 ft. head (common for a 5 wt. "trout" line)will roll cast effectively to well over 50 ft. Most casters cannot roll cast that far so it makes no difference for most anglers which taper they roll cast.

DT lines can be cast extreme distances by talented casters. Some casters are capable of carrying an entire DT line in the air, making it a very long ST, in essence. Yes, the extra weight of the long, large dia. line loads the rod more, but good casters know to open their rod arc and make their strokes very smooth. Dropping 2-3 line sizes lighter than the rod is rated for makes casting DTs a long ways even easier.

For fishing use most anglers are better off with a WF line, unless distance beyond 50 ft. is rarely needed. Beyond that distance, being able to shoot the small diameter running line of a WF makes long fishing distances easier to achieve.

If a DT and WF line have the same front taper, their "weighted zone" is the same, until you get to the rear taper of the WF. Beyond that point, the DT will remain heavier due to its larger diameter. It is easy to see where the weight in a line is, just look at the profile, where it is big, it is heavy, where it is small, it is light. This assuming lines of a single specific gravity, not sinking tip lines.

Joe, switching to DT lines for your short distance casting will gain you no benefit. Again assuming similar tapers, there will be no difference in how the two designs will cast at short range. As much as I'd like to sell more lines, save your money for a casting lesson if you're having trouble!

The average +- weight tolerance is about 5%, not 10%. A very talented caster might be able to tell the difference between a line made at either end of the tolerance, but for most people they will feel and perform exactly the same. Certainly it makes sense to try different lines on your rods to see whether you might like a 4 wt. or 6 wt. better than a 5, but usually performance problems originate with the caster, not the gear. If you question this, give your troublesome gear to a better caster to get his/her opinion.

I hope this doesn't just confuse the issue more........
Bruce

And here's the thread...
[url=http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/Forum1/HTML/016379.html:aac24]http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/Forum1/HTML/016379.html[/url:aac24]

and here's the reference in Flyfishing Basics....

It's in the "Flyfishing 101" section under Flyfishing Basics"



[This message has been edited by ducksterman (edited 12 April 2006).]