How to test knot strength?

[Marco]

John,
I assure you NO eyes rolled prompting my response to your question. I'm merely stating that in my experience, I give the relative knot strength question, little thought.

Mark

[jszymczyk]

Test everything, then test it again! I'm all for knot testing, and I have done it many times over the years, UNscientifically though. I had a gradual eye-opening through all of this however--- When I determined my "favorite" knots, based on ease of tying and relative strength, making sure they were tied correctly and COMPLETELY drawn tight, I tried putting enough tension on them WITH MY FLY ROD AND FLY LINE. Even "snapping" the line as in a hard hookset from a slack line on a very large fish, I had a hell of a time breaking off with 4lb test leader material and a 5 wt rod. I have learned that most times knots fail, it is due to the knot not being drawn up completely tight, or the knot having suffered some abrasion. A well tied simple 5 turn clinch (unimproved...) is pretty much as unbreakable at the end of the giant shock absorber made up of leader, line, and rod as is any whiz-bang super complicated wonder-knot. Now, factors change as you fight a fish and get ready to land it--- you might have just some leader outside the rod tip and the shock absorber system is much less than it was at first... but unless you're using micro-fine tippet and catching big fish, failures are usually due to a poorly tied knot.

[Steve Molcsan]

As Mark and others have said well tied is the key,
but who here doesn't like good conversation as John has brought to our table, and I admit how I do love to hear, harp about , dabble with and learn the various angles of our sport.. Thanks John!

You all be safe....

[PA Dave]

I'd like to hear what methods you decide to use and to see what results your informal tests produce once you've finished. I hope you post them for us.

[Holden Caulfield]

John:

One of my favorite topics - knot strength. I applaud your curiosity as all knots are not created equal. Don't be fooled by the "100% knot strength promise" or the "it has never failed me guarantee". I grew up with the clinch, used it all the time, and broke off the occasional fish, tested it empirical against some other knots, and determined - the clinch sucks. I use different knots now and while I still break off the occasional fish, it happens less often. I won't tell you which one I use as I do not want to evangelize and a young grasshopper must find his own pathway

Easiest way to test is to tie one end of a piece of tippet to a hook using one knot and the other end to a hook using the other knot - hold each hook with hemostats and pull. Do it ten times and this will give you relative knots strength. Don't get bog down on all the reasons why this is not perfectly controlled and scientific as after 10 times you will see a trend. Also, some may argue that this doesn't test "real world fishing situations" - well, at least it is empirical and better than going with "this knot has never failed me"

Unless you tie a bimini twist, the knot is always the weakest link. In trout sized tippet, many have done these test and the Pitzen (16-20), Orvis, and Non-slip monoloop consistently are at the top and prove to be significantly stronger than the clinch or improved clinch - test these yourself. Note, as they are so strong the tippet knot will become the weakest so you may want to explore which knots are strongest for tippet connections.

Happy pulling...

Regards,

Ken

[jszymczyk]

Don't forget that some knots work better for different materials such as fluorocarbon, limp monofiliment, stiff monofiliment, etc. I MOSTLY like to use the old Trilene Knot with most nylon monofiliment, but found it is a b***ch to draw up completely when using Fluorocarbon tippet and often breaks. On small flies, i.e. small diameter wire being tied to, even with light mono tippet the "twice through the eye" turn in the Trilene Knot can cause problems. When tied correctly, it performs exceedingly well, but there are times when it is not appropriate. Same for any other knot. When using a 25-30lb fluoro bite tippet in salt water, I found that a 3 or 4 turn regular clinch knot worked great, would not slip, and was certainly WAY stronger than the 12-15 lb regular leader I used. I landed some big heavy fish with it. Didn't have a failure due to knot slippage or failure.

I'll have to look up the Pitzen, because for some reason I'm not familiar with that name.

[vmabuck]

My new favorite loop knot:

The Canoeman's knot.

Works great for small flies and it has not failed me yet...

[Crunchy]

Crunchy,

John N. If Ladyfisher reads this, she is more than likely paceing the floor. What you have discribed with having the weight
below the fly is nothing more than a snagging rig. There is a place in western Washington where Ladyfisher once lived and
where the Chum Salmon come to spawn around September. The meat anglers would line up on one side of the water way and wait for a school of salmon to swin up stream, then they would cast to the other bank and as the school was right in front of them they would real their lines back in a jerking motion. Needless to say this was very a successfull operation.
Unit one day the MAN came down to see for himself. I think it was the request by the fly fisher people. However, The MAN walked off with several people and their gear. (Looked like salt water gear) As soon as the word got around to the
meat anglers our water became quite peacefull again and we could fly fish out in the estuarry where a salmon could drag
you all around to where the tops of our wadders would almost go under. L F if you are reading this I know you are nodding your head and laughing about being drug around by a fish !

The thing on knots is some knots call for the tippet to pass through the eye of the hook twice. I found that doing so usually caused the second loop to cross over the bottom loop in the eye thus causing a pressure X to be formed. What I learned in chem class is that this kind of pressure causes the bottom portion of the knot to "Flow Cold." againsed the eye and thus being whe weakest part of the knot. I know this opened a can of worms on this one, and someone with a lot more knowledge and experience out there has the answer !

Crunchy

[Marco]

I think I gleaned this from somewhere herein ( FAOL) in a more or less accurate quote, " fly fishing is simple. You can overthink" . Obviously, I agree.

Mark

[John_N]

I know this opened a can of worms on this one

Yeah, I'd say you did. You either have a lot of nerve or you're confused, and I'm going to assume it's just the latter. If we were standing face to face, I'd probably give you the same benefit of the doubt for a minute or so, after which I'd physically help clear up the confusion if you persisted in such accusations. How is what I'm talking about the same as some clown dragging a weighted rig through a run and purposely trying to snag a fish? If you or some other fly fisherman uses a beadhead or weighted nymph under an indicator, which would give you the same taut connection I described, would that also constitute snagging in this ridiculous analogy of yours? And while we're at it, I assume you realize that someone fishing with what you would presumably consider a legitimate weight-above-the-fly rig could just as easily engage in the practice of snagging, don't you? I've seen it happen plenty of times by people working steelhead or salmon runs, and have little doubt that it's a purposeful practice by some. So where exactly does a nymph fisherman become a snagger in this world view of yours? Nowhere in my description was I talking about dragging a rig through a run, jerking the rig, or whatever other unseemly practice you've apparently chosen to read into it. Much as it torques me off to have to defend against this nonsense, I'm talking about a normal, dead drifted nymphing rig. All I'm trying to do is come up with a rig that combines the advantages of two slightly different but commonly used systems. On the one hand, I happen to believe, perhaps incorrectly, that fishing a weighted nymph(s) of some sort gives the advantage of a more direct connection to the indicator and better strike detection. On the other hand, I like the idea of an unweighted nymph being able to move a little more realistically in the water column. As I've already tried to describe, when I go with the standard method of weight a foot or so above my unweighted nymphs, I've never been wild about the mental image of that weight serving as a kind of anchor point, with my nymphs floating somewhat disconnected beneath that weight. Without going into even more tedious detail, all I'm doing is moving the weight to the end of the line and my unweighted nymph to a point slightly above it. If it helps you to come down off your high horse a little, imagine it as a dead drifted two nymph rig with an unweighted nymph above and a beadhead nymph below. Hopefully that clears it up for you and that which has been stirred up can die back down. Tight lines to you, so long as they don't lead to a snag of course!