Traditional Snakes vs. Insert on Salt Water Rod

[GBurgFisher]

Hi Friends - It's been too long since my last post. Fortunately or unfortunately I haven't spent nearly as much time in front of the computer...

Needless to say I'd like your input. I'm building a graphite rod for a trip to the salt later in the year. This is my first saltwater build. What are your thoughts on reducing the overall number of traditional snake guides and adding some single foot snake guides with an SIC insert. I really want this to shoot line like a champ and I've heard of others doing this nearly all the way up the rod. Any advocates or otherwise out there for this practice?

Second question: Is there any type of conversion chart for say a "1 traditional snake ='s a 6mm, etc.

Thanks for your input
Andrew

[Greg F]

What weight line are you using? I would use Fuji LAG Alconites or LSG sic, Pac Bay Minima, or Fuji TLSG titanium sic ($$$) guides on a saltwater rod. Sixes would be fine, you can go smaller with the Minima. I am not speaking from experience, but I have been studying up on it for a while. I am gathering parts to build a 5 wt switch rod with BLAG 4 alconites.

Greg F

[kbproctor]

You won't really reduce the number of guides, but you will reduce the number of wraps and the line will slide through better. The guides will wear longer, too.

[dunfly]

I don't use insert guides myself, but I think they will work fine. I would not reduce the number of guides. In fact, I am beginning to believe that increasing the number of guides is more beneficial. It started with a discussion on Ultimate Performance Rods. I got into a somewhat heated exchange with Fox Statler, but I really think he is on to something. He advocates up to 15 guides on a 9 foot rod. I started using more guides on spinning rods using the concept theory and it works like a charm. I think the same would work on a fly rod. If you think about it, there are two things slowing down the shooting line, one is friction on the guides, but the other is line slap caused by sags between the guides slaping against them. The larger number of guides reduces sag and thus line slap.

[Walnutshoe]

Good advise above. I would check my line / leader connection against a couple different sizes of the guide type I wanted to use and set runners in the smallest size that passes the connection easily. Personally, I do a static load test and let the blank tell me number / location of guides. Additional guides may reduce line slap, but the extra weight is detrimental (especially towards the tip) to the blank. Everything we do in this addiction is a tradeoff. Please yourself with the build and all is good.

[GBurgFisher]

I was actually planning to keep the same number of guides, but reduce the number of traditional bent wire snake guides and increase the number of guides with an SIC insert. Sorry for the poor explanation above.

Somewhat of an aside: I personally think of everything with an insert should be called a stripping guide for the purpose of clarity.

The concept of increasing guides is an interesting one... I'll track down that thread.

The build will be on a 10wt TICRx Blank and I'm planning to match a line after the build but it will probably be in the 10 or 11 wt range.

The factory suggestion for this rod is two stripping guides and 8 snake guides. I was planning on keeping the four bent wire on the tip section and replacing the other four with single footed snake guides with an SIC insert. I was also considering replacing the bent wire tip with an SIC insert tip top, and maybe adding an additional insert guide on the tip section. My concerns are on wt of the guides and the overall impact on the load. The tip section will be dependent on how stiff the rod is. Anyone had any issues with the added wt or bulk?

[ol' blue]

Dorber has a line of rods with extra guides. Their D-Reach line has 19 guides on them.

I also found this on their site.

http://www.dorber.com/E1.html

I like ceramic rings guides on my rods. They are lots quieter when I shoot line. It doesn't really matter, IMO, but I personally don't like the sound that fly line makes shooting through snakes. Nothing but personal preference. Do what you want, and it will work fine.

[Greg F]

Why not use all ceramic ringed guides? Any ceramic is so much harder than chrome, which is so much harder than stainless steel.

Vickers hardness scale values

Stainless Steel (SS): 400 [B.E.]
Chrome: 800-1000 [C.M.]
Carbaloy: 1000 [B.E.]
Aluminum Oxide: 1200-1400 [B.E., C.M.]
Alconite (Fuji): 1300-1500 [Fuji]
NanoLite (Titan): 1800 [J.M.]
Zirconia: 1000-1400 [M.G.]
Zirconia PVD: 1600 [B.E.]
SiC: 2200-2400 [B.E., C.M.]