Smarter Fish (inspired by FFing Humane?)

[GBurgFisher]

This is a great thread, and thank you for that article. I've often wondered about this. I'm in the "smarter than we give them credit" category. Let me give you an example using the Letort, a stream near me. There is a noticeable difference in fish behavior when you approach the stream with or without a fly rod. Locals contend that the fish know you are there to catch them...I'm pretty sure they just think humans with sticks are bad news.

Its not an acknowledgement (which would necessitate reason and reflection), but there is some collective knowledge. To ask if fish are smart is ridiculous. Intelligence doesn't actually exist....humans created that concept and figured out how to quantifiy it. You can say someone is smart, but all you are really saying is that they are "smarter" than a portion of the population. I'm not saying that Einstein wasn't a genius, I'm just saying that he wouldn't have been one if there wasn't someone else there to tell him.

Here's another one. We essentially do the same thing with language. Do fish have language...well if you don't relegate language to the ability to speak...then yeah, they might. Example. They have these eels in NZ. The eels "know" when fish are caught because the fish release pheromones into the water to warn others about predators (i.e. the eel). Its clearly some form of communication (albeit slightly ironic since the pheromone to warn the eels has begun to attract them).

[Bobinmich]

What gramps said.

I think I'm going to start drinking again. I can't handle this one.

Bob Bolton

[SilverMallard]

I hope fish are really, really smart. I know they don't have much in the way of pain receptors in their nervous systems. And I know their brain capacity is crude and small. But I sure hope they learn from experience.

On the other hand, the law of natural selection predicates that we catch mostly the dumber ones and that the smartest survive the longest and eat the best...thus get biggest. It is actually far more likely that the "smart old fish" that haunts your favorite hole has never been caught than it is that he has learned from being caught.

But I like my quarry to be worthy and provide me with a challenge. The smarter the better. Doesn't bother me in the least. But I will say this...

Fish are smart enough not to sit around agonizing about how they treat their food and if they're being "fair" to all the other little aquatic critters.

[Gramps]

I hope fish are really, really smart. I know they don't have much in the way of pain receptors in their nervous systems. And I know their brain capacity is crude and small. But I sure hope they learn from experience.

On the other hand, the law of natural selection predicates that we catch mostly the dumber ones and that the smartest survive the longest and eat the best...thus get biggest. It is actually far more likely that the "smart old fish" that haunts your favorite hole has never been caught than it is that he has learned from being caught.

But I like my quarry to be worthy and provide me with a challenge. The smarter the better. Doesn't bother me in the least. But I will say this...

Fish are smart enough not to sit around agonizing about how they treat their food and if they're being "fair" to all the other little aquatic critters.

Why don't you give them a real chance? Catch them with your hands.

That's two posts on this subject that you insulted some members of this forum. Is that your style?

[SilverMallard]

I hope fish are really, really smart. I know they don't have much in the way of pain receptors in their nervous systems. And I know their brain capacity is crude and small. But I sure hope they learn from experience.

On the other hand, the law of natural selection predicates that we catch mostly the dumber ones and that the smartest survive the longest and eat the best...thus get biggest. It is actually far more likely that the "smart old fish" that haunts your favorite hole has never been caught than it is that he has learned from being caught.

But I like my quarry to be worthy and provide me with a challenge. The smarter the better. Doesn't bother me in the least. But I will say this...

Fish are smart enough not to sit around agonizing about how they treat their food and if they're being "fair" to all the other little aquatic critters.

Why don't you give them a real chance? Catch them with your hands.

That's two posts on this subject that you insulted some members of this forum. Is that your style?

Actually, I've done that. It's challenging, alright. But too messy.

There is only one person whom I addressed specifically and nothing insulting was said in any of my posts except for that single "dumb question." The fact that I find it silly and even arrogant that we question the "ethics" of our predatory nature need not insult you...or anyone else. It's merely a different perspective from the way you view the universe and man's role in it. You see, I believe man is an animal...the most highly adapted and sophisticated of all animals, but an animal. I believe that man was created to be a predator and...as such...need make no apology for predatory behaviors. To ME, to question the "correctness" of this fundamental reality is arrogance against nature/the Creator...thinking more of ourselves than we have a right to. A lion doesn't feel sorry for the gazelle...either the ones he kills, or the ones he harasses and lets get away. Neither does he feel uncomfortable with is role in the universe. He's a lion.

It's like the old story about the farmer and the snake. The farmer finds this baby snake and makes it a "pet." Years later, the snake bites the farmer. The farmer says to the snake, "I took you in, raised you, fed you, kept you safe all of your life. And this is the thanks I get? I'm going to die!" To which the snake replies...

"What did you expect? I'm a SNAKE!"

Only overly-civilized people think like y'all do on these two threads. The vast majority of the people of planet Earth would find this discussion silly, too. Be glad that you are among the pampered minority...as am I. But I will not apologize for finding soul-searching about the "ethics" of hunting/fishing (in the abstract) silly. There are all sorts of "ethics" WITHIN the scope of hunting/fishing we can talk about intelligently. But to entertain the notion that hunting/fishing are somehow INHERENTLY unethical is...to ME...the height of arrogance. If that offends you...tough.

[Marco]

SilverMallard,
Your eloquence is surpassed ONLY by your logic . Or is it the other way around?? Nevertheless...................


Mark

[Silverexpress]

I think (uh-oh), the longer one stands in the sun, the dummer they get. Add to this the amount of beer one consumes to alleviate dehydration, and walla. Everything even a rock, let alone a fish, gets smarter by the minute.

Now for those that do catch fish, let's see what they have to say.

[EdD]

Logically speaking (yikes!) we might be educating individual fish, but we are returning the dummies to the gene pool when we release them. If you want a bunch of really smart fish, keep the dummies and let only the smart ones survive and breed. But don't blame me if their kids knock your kids out of the better schools. <groan>


Ed

[Wild One]

There is only one person whom I addressed specifically and nothing insulting was said in any of my posts except for that single "dumb question." The fact that I find it silly and even arrogant that we question the "ethics" of our predatory nature need not insult you...or anyone else. It's merely a different perspective from the way you view the universe and man's role in it. You see, I believe man is an animal...the most highly adapted and sophisticated of all animals, but an animal. I believe that man was created to be a predator and...as such...need make no apology for predatory behaviors. To ME, to question the "correctness" of this fundamental reality is arrogance against nature/the Creator...thinking more of ourselves than we have a right to. A lion doesn't feel sorry for the gazelle...either the ones he kills, or the ones he harasses and lets get away. Neither does he feel uncomfortable with is role in the universe. He's a lion.

It's like the old story about the farmer and the snake. The farmer finds this baby snake and makes it a "pet." Years later, the snake bites the farmer. The farmer says to the snake, "I took you in, raised you, fed you, kept you safe all of your life. And this is the thanks I get? I'm going to die!" To which the snake replies...

"What did you expect? I'm a SNAKE!"

As a preface, you have said: a different perspective. I find no offense here, neither should you.

I understand the logical flow of thought here, but disagree with it on the whole.

Man certainly is the most advanced creature on the earth. I do not feel, though, that man was created to be a predator. If this was man's purpose, then why have the ability to question our own actions? Why would we adapt the ability to know right from wrong, to reason and make decisions? If man was created to be a predator, then we would not be anything more than a funny lookings, scrawny bear (or whatever animal you like). Your logic speaks this as well.

The fact that we possess the capacity to question or own nature/purpose, logically, says that we should (should being an ethical word here of course). There is a difference between the lion, snake, fish and man--clearly. The difference is that they lack the capacity to question the correctness of their choices. They do not comprehend right from wrong, thus cannot be expected to live accordingly to what is universally, or locally deemed right and wrong by the higher species. On the other hand, we do comprehend this and to deny the fact that we should and could question this is not logical and in essence denies what makes us the more advanced species. Using an example of a "lesser" animal to justify our actions is not logical thinking.

Of course the snake will bite the farmer. As the story says, "what did you expect?" That snake doesn't have the mental capacity to realize, "if this nice old man had not taken me in, I'd be dead. I shouldn't bite him." We cannot expect anything more from that snake, but we can expect more from ourselves and the fact that we can expect anything is evidence enough of this.

Bottom line, while I disagree with some of what you said I will continue to fish. I'll continue to release most of my fish without a feeling of guilt and harvest some without a feeling of guilt. As I posted in the other thread, my decisions are based on my feelings. I rely solely on what makes me the higher species: my conscience and my ability to reason. I do not know how smart fish get or if they get smarter. If I see one cry or have one tell me that they cannot believe one could be so cruel then I'll stop fishing. Until then...FISH ON!

[Gramps]

I hope fish are really, really smart. I know they don't have much in the way of pain receptors in their nervous systems. And I know their brain capacity is crude and small. But I sure hope they learn from experience.

On the other hand, the law of natural selection predicates that we catch mostly the dumber ones and that the smartest survive the longest and eat the best...thus get biggest. It is actually far more likely that the "smart old fish" that haunts your favorite hole has never been caught than it is that he has learned from being caught.

But I like my quarry to be worthy and provide me with a challenge. The smarter the better. Doesn't bother me in the least. But I will say this...

Fish are smart enough not to sit around agonizing about how they treat their food and if they're being "fair" to all the other little aquatic critters.

Why don't you give them a real chance? Catch them with your hands.

That's two posts on this subject that you insulted some members of this forum. Is that your style?

Actually, I've done that. It's challenging, alright. But too messy.

There is only one person whom I addressed specifically and nothing insulting was said in any of my posts except for that single "dumb question." The fact that I find it silly and even arrogant that we question the "ethics" of our predatory nature need not insult you...or anyone else. It's merely a different perspective from the way you view the universe and man's role in it. You see, I believe man is an animal...the most highly adapted and sophisticated of all animals, but an animal. I believe that man was created to be a predator and...as such...need make no apology for predatory behaviors. To ME, to question the "correctness" of this fundamental reality is arrogance against nature/the Creator...thinking more of ourselves than we have a right to. A lion doesn't feel sorry for the gazelle...either the ones he kills, or the ones he harasses and lets get away. Neither does he feel uncomfortable with is role in the universe. He's a lion.

It's like the old story about the farmer and the snake. The farmer finds this baby snake and makes it a "pet." Years later, the snake bites the farmer. The farmer says to the snake, "I took you in, raised you, fed you, kept you safe all of your life. And this is the thanks I get? I'm going to die!" To which the snake replies...

"What did you expect? I'm a SNAKE!"

Only overly-civilized people think like y'all do on these two threads. The vast majority of the people of planet Earth would find this discussion silly, too. Be glad that you are among the pampered minority...as am I. But I will not apologize for finding soul-searching about the "ethics" of hunting/fishing (in the abstract) silly. There are all sorts of "ethics" WITHIN the scope of hunting/fishing we can talk about intelligently. But to entertain the notion that hunting/fishing are somehow INHERENTLY unethical is...to ME...the height of arrogance. If that offends you...tough.

You're off on the killing fish for food instead of using C&R. I've said many many times I have no problem with catching fish for food. So, what does being a predator have to do with C&R? Why do we go fishing if we're not going to eat the fish? There's no other reason than for our own personal pleasure. The balance of nature or any other reason has nothing to do with it. It's fun, and man likes to have fun. Me included.

That's why when the Rabbi asked if anybody feels guilty to C&R. I said yes I do. Guilty enough to stop? I guess not, but I bend over backwards to make sure the fish lives. I guess that makes me feel a little better, but it doesn't take away the guilt.

I don't push my values onto anybody else, but when i'm asked about them. I give them, and I don't need to call someone stupid for not agreeing with me.