Short Fly Rods for Small Streams

After fly fishing primarily for warm water species in the Midwest, I've fished a few times in Southeast Wisconsin's Driftless region and I really like that type of fishing. Consequently, I've got bug to do a lot more fishing for trout in small streams. I have fished these small streams with an eight foot four weight rod, which worked well for most of the streams that I fished. I did find myself in some sections of streams where any type of cast was difficult to impossible to execute due to overhanging brush and lack of room to even do a roll cast. I'm considering getting a shorter fly rod in either a three or four weight to fish these tight streams, but I'm not sure how short I want to go. I plan on fishing with both surface flies and subsurface flies, so I want want something long enough to do at least some mending. Would a 6'10" or 7' rod be short enough to or should I go shorter than that?

Thanks for your opinions.

BigA,

A soft or slow action 7 foot rod works great on small streams and pocket water fishing. Bamboo is a great rod for that or a graphite that is designed as a true medium action rod.

I did have a 6 foot 2 weigth rod once but found that a rod that short, for me, was not as effective for fishing, again, that was for me, but I would imagine that some people do very well with them.

Steve Pennington makes a great 7 foot 4 weight bamboo rod. Some of us on FAOL have that rod.

Larry ---sagefisher---

Sagefisher is right on. A number of years ago (20+) I used a 7 foot fiberglass rod on small streams and it did very well. I'm going the opposite direction as I now am going after smallies on larger streams and have gone to longer, heavier rods. I don't think you could go wrong with a slower action 7 footer.

BigA

I fish small streams in NE Iowa's Driftless region which is very similar to that in SW WI. My primary rod is an 8 1/2' 4wt, but also will use either a 7' 4wt bamboo made by Steve Pennington or a 7'3" 3wt full flex graphite. I primarily stick with the 4 wts and find them more versatile. I'll sometime use the 3wt if I am fishing very small dry flys and there is not much wind.

Dave

7' 4wt in glass is ideal for most such fishing. If you have a slower 7 ftr in graphite, in tight spots, it is often better to overline it with a 5wt line for better turnover in tight spots. Practise you bow-n-arrow casts with a piece of yarn on the end of your leader for dry fly type presentation.

aa

I have seen a Lefty Kreh video where he suggests using a regular 8.5-9' rod for small streams. Lefty just used the top two sections to cast. As soon as he had made the cast, he would reattach the tip sections to the butt to complete the drift and/or fight the fish.

I get the distinct impression that nobody actually does this. Am I wrong?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by deathb4disco

I have seen a Lefty Kreh video where he suggests using a regular 8.5-9' rod for small streams. Lefty just used the top two sections to cast. As soon as he had made the cast, he would reattach the tip sections to the butt to complete the drift and/or fight the fish.

I get the distinct impression that nobody actually does this. Am I wrong?

---

Yes, you are wrong. :) I know several who have little 6' 6" rods made with the top 3 sections of a 9' rod. Works great.

Fishing The Dritless is on my short list, hopefully next year.

Most of my fishing is in waters just as you describe and I have used 7 ft., 3-4 wt. rods for several years on them. All mine are bamboo and I particularly like my Pocket Water Rods 7 footer, Orvis Madison Far & Fine and occasionally the Tonka Prince I own. Don't discount bamboo for this type of fishing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kbproctor

Yes, you are wrong. :) I know several who have little 6' 6" rods made with the top 3 sections of a 9' rod. Works great.

---

Yes, they make a nice little bamboo banty rod. I've made several. Pick up a decent, but not expensive, old 3 piece 9 foot bamboo rod. Then use the middle and top sections for the rod. I make a handle by using a 3/8 inch dowell rod. Mount the handle and reel seat on the dowell rod leaving enough room for the ferrule. Remove the female ferrule from the bottom section of the bamboo rod and fit it to the end of the dowell rod. It will, of course fit the bottom male ferrule of the mid section piece. Makes a nice little rod. Try different lines to see which cast the best. I find that a 5 weight line generally works best.

Dave

Big A: I believe that for this type of fishing the weight of the rod is not nearly as important as the length. You asked should I go to 6'10" or a 7'0" rod. Having went through several different length rods through the years I determined that those short rods were not for me. I realy did not like fishing a 7"0" or shorter rod. It just wasn't fun. So I would advise you to make sure that your choice is something that is a length that you find enjoyable.
Good Luck

Tim

I use fly rods from 5'3" to 9'. I find that rods under seven feet are require a great deal more attention to the cast from the fisherman. You have less leverage to help you and minor mistakes are much more likely to end with a hook in your clothing or anatomy. Despite that I chose to fish the 5' 3" Fenwick glass rod several times last summer. If I'm fairly sure I will only be fishing dries or swinging wets It can be a lot of fun. It becomes a lot of work to use for long casts with weighted nymphs or streamers. It's not so much that it can't be done but that you can't be casual about your casting.

How about this? I use a 5 foot 3 wt. graphite for little (very little) streams. I overline it with half a 6 wt. wf line (front half naturally). You use a hatchet cast and you can shoot tight little loops up under tags with very little effort at 15 feet or less. You use a 6 foot leader. The outfit roll casts like a gangbuster when fishing a film caddis down stream too. Unorthodox but don't knock it till you try it.

Bob

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kbproctor

Yes, you are wrong. :) I know several who have little 6' 6" rods made with the top 3 sections of a 9' rod. Works great.

---

But that's not what Lefty is doing. He's fishing with a 9' rod. He just removes the top two sections solely to make the cast. After making the cast with that top 4' section of rod, he then reattaches the top section to the butt section.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by deathb4disco

But that's not what Lefty is doing. He's fishing with a 9' rod. He just removes the top two sections solely to make the cast. After making the cast with that top 4' section of rod, he then reattaches the top section to the butt section.

---

Are these folks not still casting with less than the whole rod? So he sticks it back together. That only gives a bit more backbone for large fish. Banty 'boo rods are generally made by using the top 2 sections of a 3pc 8'-9' rod and people fish with those all the time. Same principle.

CCS measurements on a MHX 9' 4pc #5 blank that was handy here in the shop. For the whole rod followed by the top 3 sections only.

Using all 4 pcs, the rod has an ERN (Effective Rod Number) of 5.65. This translates to a heavy #5 that would certainly tend towards a #6 line close in. The Action Angle, which is indicative of the speed of the rod. is listed at 70 which just barely translates to a fast rod. It is faster than most blanks I have measured. The idea that MHX suggests effectively underlining this blank by about a half step would explain the fast feel to the blank.

Using the top 3 sections for the next set of measurements, I get an ERN of 5.65. Notice that this did not change. Pull it apart. It's still going to cast the same line. The AA did fall into the moderate to moderate fast range at about 67 so dropping the stiffer butt section did slow the rod down a tad. Overlining to a #6 will give this configuration a bit slower feel but would probably work better in close.

Putting it back together is more work than is necessary. Drop the reel in your pocket. All it's doing in this situation is storing line anyway.

Short rods are just the checker for small creeks. I have a 7' 3/4 wt graphite that I carry to the creeks around here. It's more than up to the task. Takes a little to catch on to operating it. Another plus is if you're going to teach young kids to fly fish they're great. My 8 yo grand daughter can lay out 50' with ease & 'style'. The kid's a natural!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kbproctor

Are these folks not still casting with less than the whole rod? So he sticks it back together. That only gives a bit more backbone for large fish. Banty 'boo rods are generally made by using the top 2 sections of a 3pc 8'-9' rod and people fish with those all the time. Same principle.

CCS measurements on a MHX 9' 4pc #5 blank that was handy here in the shop. For the whole rod followed by the top 3 sections only.

Using all 4 pcs, the rod has an ERN (Effective Rod Number) of 5.65. This translates to a heavy #5 that would certainly tend towards a #6 line close in. The Action Angle, which is indicative of the speed of the rod. is listed at 70 which just barely translates to a fast rod. It is faster than most blanks I have measured. The idea that MHX suggests effectively underlining this blank by about a half step would explain the fast feel to the blank.

Using the top 3 sections for the next set of measurements, I get an ERN of 5.65. Notice that this did not change. Pull it apart. It's still going to cast the same line. The AA did fall into the moderate to moderate fast range at about 67 so dropping the stiffer butt section did slow the rod down a tad. Overlining to a #6 will give this configuration a bit slower feel but would probably work better in close.

Putting it back together is more work than is necessary. Drop the reel in your pocket. All it's doing in this situation is storing line anyway.

---

You're overanalyzing a very simple question. I know about banty rods, and I agree that the principle is the same. That's not my question, though. I'm just asking if anybody does exactly what Lefty did in the video? I don't think so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by deathb4disco

I have seen a Lefty Kreh video where he suggests using a regular 8.5-9' rod for small streams. Lefty just used the top two sections to cast. As soon as he had made the cast, he would reattach the tip sections to the butt to complete the drift and/or fight the fish.

I get the distinct impression that nobody actually does this. Am I wrong?

---

I'm not sure I see the word "Exactly" in that last sentence. Don't jump on me if you can't be clear and concise as to your meaning.

We do know that at least one person does it and you have seen documentation to that fact so that proves that somebody does it and therefore your statement is still wrong because Lefty actually does do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kbproctor

I'm not sure I see the word "Exactly" in that last sentence. Don't jump on me if you can't be clear and concise as to your meaning.

We do know that at least one person does it and you have seen documentation to that fact so that proves that somebody does it and therefore your statement is still wrong because Lefty actually does do it.

---

Good grief.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobinmich

How about this? I use a 5 foot 3 wt. graphite for little (very little) streams. I overline it with half a 6 wt. wf line (front half naturally). You use a hatchet cast and you can shoot tight little loops up under tags with very little effort at 15 feet or less. You use a 6 foot leader. The outfit roll casts like a gangbuster when fishing a film caddis down stream too. Unorthodox but don't knock it till you try it.

Bob

---

Bob,

I think that is a cool, well thought out and executed plan for making the most of your fishing tools at hand as dictated by local conditions. BTW, got married in '92 in the park adjacent to one of those "little streams" I'll bet you are talking about. I have caught some nice little brownies on a 6'6" 5wt Eagle Claw glass rod on P_____ Creek.

aa (former resisdent of Rochester, MI)

My rod for SMALL streams is a 7.5ft Loomis GL2, a very soft rod. Short enough to cast under branches.
The two things I observe about small stream rods are these:
They should be softer rods because the amount of line out is short and so the rod has to have more 'give', the line won't provide it. Also softer rods roll cast well.
Short softer rods can be an older design and probably the ‘lower class’ rods from the manufacturer, so they are less expensive; i.e. the GL2 was about the lowest level of Loomis available.
I suggest you look at Greenstix (I have two and a friend has just received the short 3wt) and the Dorber ones made for small creeks – many folks like them and they are reasonably priced.
Enjoy.

Just putting in my 2cents here, 85 to 90% of my fishing is done on small creeks with over hanging bankside brush with low overhead canopy. A 6ft6in 3wt Diamondglass rod (3wt DT) seems to work very well for me. On small streams I seldom use anything longer than an 8ft 4wt glass rod.

Just sayin. . .

My winter projects are to build some small stream rods so here are my choices FWIW.
1. a 6'8" Banty made from a 9' bamboo mid and tip with a removable handle. will probably throw a 4wt
2. Lamiglas 6'6" fiberglass 4 wt. I just like that fiberglass action and It's becoming a replacement for a 6' Fenwick i sold a few years ago and now miss.
3. 6'6" Orvis superfine 3wt I really like this rod when I cast it a few weeks ago so now it's on the short list.

BigA:

I split the Driftless into two seasons: Early season, I fish a 9' 5-weight or 8.5' 4-weight. I figure the chances are good I'm going to wind up nymphing much of the day, so I think the length more appropriate. On the streams I usually fish, casts are pretty much straight up stream -both dry fly and nymph - not much need for mending.

Late June through the end of the season, I pretty much begin to go small with 7.5' or 7' four-weights. Terrestrial season has started big time and I rarely have a nymph on my tippet. Not much going on with mayflies until September's brood of BWO's anyway; Epherons are burrowers. The likelihood of needing something to nymph with is pretty small. I also think you'd want something with a fuller flex, sometimes you'll be casting just a leader and maybe a foot or two of line.

I've found two exceptions to this: 1) If it's been raining recently, think about using a San Juan worm. Generations of farm boys have been fishing worms after rains. Why not us FIBs? 2) In late June - if the Hexes are still going, a big nymph could be ticket - particularly if the water isn't very clear.

My next rod is going to be a Superfine Touch 7' 4wt. I've broken my 4wt 7' boo so many times, enough is enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kbproctor

I'm not sure I see the word "Exactly" in that last sentence. Don't jump on me if you can't be clear and concise as to your meaning.

We do know that at least one person does it and you have seen documentation to that fact so that proves that somebody does it and therefore your statement is still wrong because Lefty actually does do it.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by deathb4disco

Good grief.

---

I second the "Good grief." It was a perfectly simple question. And the meaning was completely clear and concise. Give the guy a break.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tlerm

I second the "Good grief." It was a perfectly simple question. And the meaning was completely clear and concise. Give the guy a break.

---

I had already dropped it. I had made my point. Are you trying to stir things up again? If he had been clear and concise, I would not have misunderstood and he did answer his own question. At least one person does it and because one of the Gods of Fly Fishing does it, there are quite likely others that do too.

It does seem like a lot of work to go through to pull things apart to make a cast, then stuff everything back together just to need to pull it all apart again to mend or roll cast or whatever. Perhaps that is what threw me, the idea that anyone would go to all that trouble. I have been in situations where I got to a spot I wanted to fish and had a long rod with me when a short one was called for and dropped the butt section to fish with the top 3, but I didn't do as Lefty did and cast then put it all back together. I lose enough fish on my own without giving them the opportunity to spit the fly while I'm fumbling around trying to put my rod back together.

Big A,
A few years ago a similar discussion took place on this board and some people touted the Cabelas 7'6" 3wt ( $100 ) for the complete package. I bought one and wow what a value. The rod is a pleasure to use and proof that you don't have to spend a fortune to get a good rod. It has become one of my go to rods for any situation but it really shines in the small stream category.
Another option is to go to Global Dorber and look at the "little streamer" outfit. It's made for what you are looking for.
Grandado

BigA,

I'm a small/tiny water fanatic, and fish 3 weights almost all of the time, mostly dries, really nothing weighted, and sizes typically 14 and smaller. I absolutely love the sub-seven foot range of rods for this type of application. The advantages they bring about for "tight quarters" more than compensate for their less than stellar performance in distance, easier line mending etc. that a longer rod brings. Accuracy and keeping the fly out of the vegetation trumps all in tight overgrown small streams with canopies. I'm not familiar with the Driftless area, but if that is what you're dealing with, I think a 6 to 7 foot rod is ideal. And I'll add that I prefer slower "soft action" rods, but I don't think that is a requirement. As long as the rod will load well with the amount of line out you'll typically be using, it's just what your personal preference dictates.

As to the "Lefty Kreh" issue... I'm far too lazy to take a rod apart and "deal with" the butt section just to cast a "short" rod. Then try and put the thing back together while trying to "fish" the cast I just made. Maybe on still water, but anywhere else... It may have been demonstrated as a "tactic", but I have a hard time seeing anyone actually utilizing it. (And never have.) An archer cast would likely be much more effective, and probably require even less "room" to execute. Not to mention a heck of a lot easier to "fish" effectively. Taking nothing away from Lefty, this seems more like a party trick to me. Fun to watch, but not really practical.

---David

Life's a series of trade-offs in the Driftless. Sometimes you have canopies and overhanging trees where the short rod makes sense and roll casts are a must. Many streams have high banks and tall weeds (particularly in the summer, obviously) where a long rod would make the most sense in order to keep one's fly out of the weeds.

Variations are pretty endless. About the most you can say is that a toss of more than 30'-35' is rarely if ever needed and accuracy is at a premium.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grandado

Big A,
A few years ago a similar discussion took place on this board and some people touted the Cabelas 7'6" 3wt ( $100 ) for the complete package. I bought one and wow what a value. The rod is a pleasure to use and proof that you don't have to spend a fortune to get a good rod. It has become one of my go to rods for any situation but it really shines in the small stream category.
Another option is to go to Global Dorber and look at the "little streamer" outfit. It's made for what you are looking for.
Grandado

---

That Cabela's Three Forks rod is my all-time small stream rod. I fish it with a 4 wt. line in close. The rod alone sells for $49.95. Can't miss for that price. I tried to buy a\the blank alone several years ago, but they don't sell it. But for the $39.95 I spent on the rod at the time, I have no complaints.

Chuck

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Utah David

Taking nothing away from Lefty, this seems more like a party trick to me. Fun to watch, but not really practical.

---David

---

My opinion exactly.

Have someone custom build you a 5 foot 2 piece 5 weight bamboo. Not a banty from an older rod's mid and tip either but from a purpose intended taper, from scratch. You will learn what a real small stream rod is like.

Thanks for your input. I am going to test cast some 6 1/2 to 7 foot fiberglass and slow graphite rods to see what I like for close quarters fishing. Bamboo is out of my price range for a rod that I would use just a few times a year.

If you are looking at Glass don't forget to check out the blanks from Kettle creek. lots of nice short glass offerings.

I fish lots of small streams , use 6' -6' 6" and a one piece 5' rod thats a one wt. the others are
3 wt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by deathb4disco

I have seen a Lefty Kreh video where he suggests using a regular 8.5-9' rod for small streams. Lefty just used the top two sections to cast. As soon as he had made the cast, he would reattach the tip sections to the butt to complete the drift and/or fight the fish.

I get the distinct impression that nobody actually does this. Am I wrong?

---

Wrong
I have on certain streams, but prefer my 6'6" 2wt..on the smaller streams..
Have used the tip section on a 4 piece too, learned from Lefty on that one.