Information, Look on FAOL First!

I don't always answer posts on the BB, but I have been seeing some recommendations in various parts of the BB on this site which infuriate me.
Many of you will go to the boards and ask questions, the answers to which are already contained within the thousands of pages available to you on this site! Now for those of you who read the articles and seek clarification, you are still on my good side.
To those of you who answer a question on the boards by immediately giving the person asking a URL for some other site, I really have to question why you are on here to begin with!
There have been countless hours spent by the contributors on the content of this web site over the years, and no expense spared on the part of FAOL to archive every word.
Sending people to another website is not now, never has been and never will be an appropriate thank you for all of the effort that goes into what you seem to be taking for granted.
You sending readers somewhere else makes about as much sense as leaving fish at your feet to go find fish.
Open your eyes, and calm your fingers
George E Emanuel

PS don't let the Junior Member tag fool you either

It is SO good to hear from you Mr Emmanuel. I so enjoyed your posts and articles when I first came on board in '98. I still use several of your tying tips and thank you for them. I trust that you will have a wonderful New Year. Junior Member my eye! :D
mcsteff

Give em hell George. See ya at State College again?

Mark

George -

An inquiry on the board will generally produce some helpful suggestions quicker than an exhaustive and quite possibly unproductive search of the archives - because the human memory is incredibly broad and quick, and the willingness to help is incredibly deep.

There are ways to be more helpful, and it seems to me the best way is to link back to information here on FAOL that you can readily find and post a link to. If someone trying to help doesn't know what is here on the site, and I'd take pretty good odds that no one knows what all is on this massive mound of information, ideas, and opinions, but knows another suitable place it can be found, a link to another site is also an expression of that willingness to help.

While expressing an intent to help, posts that simply say, in effect, "go find it in the archives" or "goggle it" or check a website without a link, are the ones that bother me. That's kind of like telling someone who is drowning to think about a PFD.

Another point about the inquiries that seem to infuriate you - often they lead to very interesting discussions. If everyone sat around examining the archives and got all the information and answers they needed there, the Bulletin Board would be a pretty quiet place. And sometimes, someone's question will cause others to think in a way that they would not have thought otherwise, or to see something they wouldn't have seen.

John

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Originally Posted by JohnScott

George -

An inquiry on the board will generally produce some helpful suggestions quicker than an exhaustive and quite possibly unproductive search of the archives - because the human memory is incredibly broad and quick, and the willingness to help is incredibly deep.

There are ways to be more helpful, and it seems to me the best way is to link back to information here on FAOL that you can readily find and post a link to. If someone trying to help doesn't know what is here on the site, and I'd take pretty good odds that no one knows what all is on this massive mound of information, ideas, and opinions, but knows another suitable place it can be found, a link to another site is also an expression of that willingness to help.

While expressing an intent to help, posts that simply say, in effect, "go find it in the archives" or "goggle it" or check a website without a link, are the ones that bother me. That's kind of like telling someone who is drowning to think about a PFD.

Another point about the inquiries that seem to infuriate you - often they lead to very interesting discussions. If everyone sat around examining the archives and got all the information and answers they needed there, the Bulletin Board would be a pretty quiet place. And sometimes, someone's question will cause others to think in a way that they would not have thought otherwise, or to see something they wouldn't have seen.

John

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Excellent point!

In some cases, people post questions on subject for which there is no detailed or even basic information on this website. I such cases it can be helpful to post a link to another site, especially if the material in question is copyrighted. I think of this as no different than providing a reference to a book or magazine article.

On the other hand, there is a tremendous amount of information on this site that a lot of visitors miss. I suspect many visitors to this site never check anything other than the bulletin board and miss all of the treasures here.

I know I am still learning all the stuff that is on this site. I know where or how to find lots of information on various subjects and tend to use the tried and true methods I know. Quite often, FAOL pops up in my search. When it does, I refer folks back here.

All that said, the information on this site is not the only information available and is not the only way to do things.

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Originally Posted by kbproctor

All that said, the information on this site is not the only information available and is not the only way to do things.

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i can find you 5 hook conversion charts on the internet faster than trying to find one here through the search function on faol. until the feature is fixed, i will continue to use advantage of GOOGLE or BING to answer questions and use internet links and faol links should they come up in a search.

faol has a lot of data stored on its servers, but not as much as the internet has stored on its servers. contrary to popular belief, not everything related to fly fishing/tying is on foal. you cannot do a search on faol for "delaware river fly patterns" and come up with the answer the internet is going to give you. give it a try and see if you come up with the same 9112 answers to the search question.

When I go to FAOL to browse and post on the bulletin board, I liken it to sitting around a pickle barrel with a pot belly stove heating the inside of a fly fishing shop. When someone sitting around that pickle barrel asks for help with something I offer whatever information comes to mind. If that includes a link to some valid information then so be it. I don't ask the fly shop proprietor first if he has anything that might help. Yes, I offer links to information. Why? Because a friend who fishes wants to know.
Sorry, I guess I took your post too personally. No rant intended.

I have no dog in this fight but truthfully the external links only make this site stronger in the eyes of the search engines.

Because of rampent keyword spamming most modern search engines rank sites HEAVILY in regards to the number of relevent links to and from a site.

Muddler:

Good to see your posting on FAOL, I have been off the Bulletin Board and out of the Chat Room on FAOL for a few years. Difference of opinions between me and Mr. Birkholm, but I never left FAOL.

I have been alway here, every week, reading all the new articles. I have also been saving all the old articles, that are in the archives (I like to refer to them as the "catacombs")!

For all you newbies, George was the original columnist of "Tying Tips" on FAOL. After he left the seat, I took over the spot for a few years until, a certain person "Flamed" me on the Bulletin Board, and I quit writing.

But I am back and so is Muddler, I wish we could get some of the great writers that we had back, so FAOL can grow back to its Glory Years, when it was the #1 site on the Internet.

Now there is so many sites on fly fishing, but none of them can even come close to the writing and friendship that this site started, back on September 1st of 1997.

A radical, outside-the-box concept! A "WEEKLY MAGAZINE", with "NO ADVERTISING", where the readers and common fly anglers, could submit their take on everything fly angling. They could ask questions, and get help to problems. How many sites on the internet have gathering, such as FAOL's Fish-Ins? We have Great Sponsor, who support this site with funds to operate.

Now we need our "Old Guard of Writer" back, as well as a" New Guard of Writers", so their voices can be heard!

~Parnelli:D

Respectfully,

This is a great site but it really isn't the end all of info on flyfishing. The articles are great but there are some sections that it is weak on whereas other places are more specialized in them.

Linking to articles contained in this site isn't that easy either. Most likely it is because I don't know what I am doing but I can send people to exact pages on other sites more easily than I can to pages other than the BB on this site. I am not really complaining but more than once I have tried to link to an article by copying the address at the top of the screen of its page and all that appears is the generic address for this site and not the address to the exact page.

Telling someone new to find info on their own after they have asked a question is a good way to scare them off.

To use your own example of fish at your feet sometimes you leave fish at your feet in order to find bigger ones somewhere else, granted you may never find them.

George, it sounds like "welcome back" is in order. I appreciate your passion for this wonderful site, but to ignore all of the information that is out there at our fingertips would be a bit foolish. I love this site and direct many to internal answers when I realize that they probably haven't looked, but there is a whole world out there that just contributes more and more to the strength of this site as each one of us brings it back and shares. Didn't know you before, but welcome back and good to have you!

kelly.

Many of you have made very thoughtful responses to my original posts and have raised some excellent points.
As is the case in much of todays society if we sacrifice the industriousness of the individual for the sake of "educating" them, then I am not really sure where future inovation will begin.
Those of you who understood my post to be touting the superiority of FAOL to all other websites have grossly misunderstood my point. I am a member of at least a half dozen excellent web sites around the world. I, like you, appreciate good information conveyed and indexed in a manner which makes it readily available to anyone.
If a newbie simply posts a question because it is easier to get the answer on the board with no further effort on his part I wonder what service we am performing for them when we "give" them that answer.
Having said that, when a newbie comes on the board and indicates that they have read articles anywhere on the net, or in a book, and are having difficulty grasping the material they can have the key to my entire kingdom.
They have made an effort, and effort is to be rewarded!
JohnScott you make an excellent point. The community of fly fishers, or any other community, is well served by the discussions found on bulletin boards. They do prompt us all to think a bit differently sometimes, and they even point out how "differently" others think from time to time.
A lively discussion can and should always be a learning experience and present opportunities for each of us to grow.
Many of the replies to my original post have alluded to the mountain of information which is FAOL. Your acknowledgement, I am sure, is good for the souls of all who have had a hand in putting this site together and making thier knowledge available to all.
We have had a good discussion on the subject, I do not know if it is exhausted, but it has served a worthwhile purpose.
We have all been able to freely and respectfully express our views, hopefully with no animous which would prevent us from taking the stream together.
As an old friend once said to me, "sometimes you gotta **** 'em off to get their attention"
From some of the responses, I would say I got your attention.
I wish you all tight lines, and best wishes for a "Happy and Fishful New Year"
George

Thanks, McSteff

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Originally Posted by Marco

Give em hell George. See ya at State College again?

Mark

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Yeah, I guess I am always giving someone hell Mark, good to see you are still here. I would be glad to fish with you again anywhere, anytime.
Have a great New Year my friend!

I'm new at this. Don't let the "Senior member" status fool you. I am new and would never have made my first trip fly fishing with Jack Hise without this site. And certainly wouldn't be addicted to the fly as I am without this site. I read the articles, and study the fly archives. I've got a book that I started where I printed out the step by step fly tying instructions by Al Campbell. (All of his "too simple" flies and a few others that I thought I could probably tie) The further I delved into the information on this site, the more I realized I was just scratching the surface of the information available. So when I have a question, which is often, I just post it here on the BB. It's simply easier and doesn't take up nearly as much time. That may make me lazy in some people's eyes, but I'm glad and thankful to all of you that have helped me out. I use to apologize for asking another "dumb" question, but no one ever told me I was bothering them or anything, so I just kept asking and over the last year or so, I stopped apologizing for it. This may sound corny, but I just hope someday to really deserve the "senior member" status and be able to help some other poor newbie out. :)

hNt

George,
May our fly lines cross each other in a friendly embrace. Either here or on the other side of the river. I look forward to fishing with you one day. Lively discussion is a good thing.
Peace Brother,

I'm all for em. (questions or remote links)

FAOL is a mass of information.
It's a bit daunting to find stuff at present though..
Even if the information is on FAOL finding it is sometimes difficult.

As to links to other sites? Why not? As long as it's not blatent self promotion and fills a real need I say go for it.

FAOL should be the starting point for your needs. If site XYZ specializes in a topic or covers it better, send the member there. If you solved their need, they will be back, and more importantly they will tell others about us too.

The stores I visit most have clerks that aren't afraid to tell me I can get a better product at another store if it is appropriate. FAOL has always tried to stand for honesty and integrity.

Besides if we see people being sent to look elsewhere it may trigger a writing response from our writing contributors to fill that need here on FAOL. In the end the member wins, the person that referred the member gets to help someone out, FAOL wins reputation points, and the FAOL sponsors win as more people come here to start with.

Relevant help be it here or elsewhere is good no matter how you slice it.

FAOL does indeed have a wealth of information however that doesn't mean thats always the best place to start or even a good place to look at all. Anyone who would ONLY look in one single place (no matter what the place is) seems a bit narrow minded if you ask me.

Here's an example when FAOL doesn't have the right information: Someone new to fly tying asks "What's a good place for beginner information of fly tying?" (or something to that effect)

To direct them to the 'Beginners tying articles' is like sending someone to the library and tell them to search the micro-films/fiche for old magazines and don't use the Internet for the video content.

There are some good articles on FAOL, but advising a new tyer to start with these and not telling them to look for instructional videos (like done by Dick Talleur etc.) is doing them a gross injustice in my opinion.

I think the issue is often that the content on FAOL is either outdated, or there is just new and improved information elsewhere.

They say "books are bound in time", web pages are no different if they are not updated on a regular basis.

Quote from Bass_Bug:
"Here's an example when FAOL doesn't have the right information: Someone new to fly tying asks "What's a good place for beginner information of fly tying?" (or something to that effect)

To direct them to the 'Beginners tying articles' is like sending someone to the library and tell them to search the micro-films/fiche for old magazines and don't use the Internet for the video content.

There are some good articles on FAOL, but advising a new tyer to start with these and not telling them to look for instructional videos (like done by Dick Talleur etc.) is doing them a gross injustice in my opinion."

I do not quite agree with this advise because the person asking for beginner information on fly tying may not know what tools are needed or even how to use them and watching a tying video will not provide the assistance they need. One must know something about how to use the tools before they can begin to tie a fly. There are a lot of members here who learned to tie flies by using Al Campbell's instructions and I do not feel they are outdated. In Al's Beginner's instructions he takes the time to explain each tool and how they are used plus he explains the tying materials and how they are used and why. With a video you cannot really tie along with the instructor but with picture step-by-step tying instructions you can go at your own pace.

Just my thoughts on this and nothing more.....

And FAOL is accepting video tutorials also.
If we marry the video with static elements like materials needed, and some entry text the beginner gets the best of both worlds.

I personally LOVE learning from videos.
But a good searchable text is best for review and looking up something real quick.

As more tiers get video gear that can do fly tying we should see move videos here.. HINT HINT :)

Pause...rewind...start...pause...start...pause...r ewind...start...

You sure can tie along with a video tutorial. I taught myself to tie flies using 3 aids: Skip Morris' Fly Tying Made Clear and Simple videos, the Orvis Fly Tying Guide, and Al Campbell's beginner's articles here on FAOL.

There is always a delicate balance to strike between making it easy for people to learn/helping folks and coddling them to the extent that we actually make them dependent instead of independent. And frankly, it requires good judgment born of real wisdom to know where that balance is...because it is in a constant state of flux.