OK, so I’ve been at this flyfishing thing for a little while now(I guess around three or so years), but for some reason, I still get wind knots like crazy. Lately I’ve used furled leaders with more success, but they still happen for me. Is there something I’m doing seriously wrong? I’m not converted to the Furled leaders 100% yet, as I’ve not made any of my own, but when using the normal 3x-5x tapered that I use, they seem to happen far too often. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks in advance
bwagner;
I carry a size 13 crochette hook with me for cleaning up wind knots! I can make some real nasty ones and am thinking of geting a pattent on them!!
bwagner,
Could be any number of things. I’ve been at it seriously only about 6 years now, and I still get them darned wind-knots more often than occasionally. Could be you’re breaking your wrist too much. Could be your following through instead of accelerating your stroke to a rapid STOP. Could be your timing is off or your casting in too large an arc. All those things vexed me and some still do. I would suggest you take your favorite outfit to a Proshop, and ask for help. Cast in front of someone who knows what they’re doing and accept all their pointers. Then buy something. It’s the only way they can stay in business. Good luck.
Life, is the time He gave you to determine where you want to spend eternity.
Lotech Joe
Lotech is right on… it could be any number of things. I would add to his list the possibility of a closed loop.
Another idea is to have someone video you casting and critique yourself. Look at the 4 basic components of flycasting (credit to Tony Weaver and Mel Kreiger) Loop, speed, stroke and trajectory.
Hope that helps… good luck.
[This message has been edited by alaskanfishguides (edited 06 February 2006).]
LoTech…Thanks for the good pointers. I just wanted to add that I always buy something when I go into a shop. This is not neccesarily a good thing!! I think I might buy too much. My issue is that I should be saving up my expendatures and purchasing something cool, like a new rod or line, but instead I pick up small useless stuff like new zingers etc… Seriously though, thanks for the tips, and I’m going to do just what you suggested. Is it wierd that my “favorite” outfit consists of a St. Croix “Pro Graphite”, also, anyone who owns one of these rods, do you consider it a medium action rod, or maybe medium slow?? I’m just curious how it’s seen by most people.
Windknots? What are those? I’ve NEVER had one. I WILL tell you this…prepare to sue the folks you bought “knotless” tapered leaders from…I was naive & didn’t check mine until I fished with 'em & those darned things have a LOT of knots in 'em! I think I got ripped off!..Now, what are those “windknot” thingies?
Mike
This site’s about sharing!
Most wind knots are caused by tailing loops which are caused by a less than perfect casting stroke. Practice short - 25’ to 30’- false casts, evaluating each loop, both forward and back. The loops should be parabolic in shape and stacked - rod, line, leader, and fly all in the same plane. Try to use the least amount of effort to get the job done.
Take some casting lessons from somebody who is REALLY good.
Bob
I think I may have previously quoted the “wrong guy” on line, but this time I’ll quote Joan Wulff.
To set it up, think of a forward casting stroke of having three phases: (1) the loading move, (2) the power snap, and (3) the follow through.
“The primary cause of a tailing loop is lack of a loading move.”
– Joan Wulff
Dynamics of Fly Casting
In other words, the cast starts off with a “power snap”.
The three segments of the cast are also due to Joan Wulff.
I have been advised that to get rid of my tailing loops I needed to have a “smoother application of power” – which amounts to the same thing if you don’t like to think of a casting stroke as having “segments”.
However, bear in mind that I am just passing on stuff I’ve either read or have been told – so if you feel misled, don’t blame me.
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Uh, I think I’m done with my login name if you need to borrow it. Worked for me.
Jim
I think maybe you can also get wind knots if you cast too well. That is, if you are using a double nymph rig like I do a lot, I think that you need to open up your casting loop, and if you cast a beautiful tight loop, you can tangle your flies - I don’t know if this is true, but it’s my understanding of several different casting blurbs I have read.
I have the same knot problem, but I won’t call it wind knots as I know it is me. I tend to cast with tailing loops and that is definitely the fault that causes me this affliction. I’m working on it, but its easier said than done. Anyway, I suggest you look at this area.
It took me awhile to discover this secret to wind knots and tangles, but that is because I am kind of slow.
Use a loop to loop connection to your leader. Store lots of leaders in your vest. If you get a problem, just replace the leader and put the bad one in your vest to address after you get home.
Time with your fly in the water is precious.
Leaders ain’t cheap, but it is better to try to salvage them at home.
And my total admiration goes to those who say their leaders last for a season or seasons. Mine sure don’t, but I enjoy trying to fix them a lot more at my tying station than I do at the water.
I do have to say that my numbers are way down on the wind knots. It is a casting thing. I was taught to pretend that you are painting a ceiling (straight line, not wind shield wiper). Something that is only achieved with practise. Also, I was taught to move you arm on long casts back as though throwing a baseball to out field. I can now cast my tip flex into backing.
My opinion on rods, If I was to have only one rod, it would be a 9’6" 5 or 6wt. med/fast. Reason: great rod for high sticking, roll casting, float tube, and casting into the wind. Also, great for casting those two rig set-ups and big flies, but will still work for the small flies. Just my opinion
[This message has been edited by Fly Goddess (edited 06 February 2006).]
Hi bwagner,
I find the longer tha cast you make the more chance you will get wind knots. Also I find that when my leader is getting to short from changing to many flies I start to get wind knots. When I am casting long distances and I keep my leader longer than my rod length I find I have hardly any wind knots. Not sure if this a bad casting habit, but I find a longer leader works for me.
Thanks,
Alan (salmonguy)
bwagner,
IMHO…One of the “main” reasons why folks get “wind knots” is in trying to apply too much power on the cast, either fore cast or back cast.
Verbage…words, words, words…
What I’m guessing is going on is that on the fore cast you’re trying to put it out there too hard. This causes the tippet to “tail” …or drop below the main line…and you’ll knot up!
To avoid this, from my own experience here, you have to have your line speed up fast enough so that your rod will “load” on the back cast. Then, when you present your fore cast, “pull” the line through the cast, faster and faster to a hard STOP w/out forcing it and let the line/loop unroll as it delivers.
Sounds easy…
I’ll try to put it another way. You NEED a good back cast to fully load the rod so that when you make your forward cast you aren’t having to “force” the line forward. That, imho, is what might be causing you to “tail” your loop.
Watch the back cast, and watch your forward cast. If, when you begin your forward cast, your leader tippet (lawn casting…tie on a piece of yarn so you can watch this) all of a sudden drops below your flyline…you’re screwed…you’ll tail!
If you get a good enough back cast to fully, FULLY load the rod, then you won’t need to force the forward cast and you won’t tail.
So…get a good back cast first. Don’t allow the line to drop below the horizontal. If it does you lose rod load and things get further complicated.
Castwell said it so well in his dang byline…“Keepeth They Backcast Uppeth”. Really, it really helps.
Think of it not so much as a back cast but more an UPcast…cast a bit upwards because you’ll need that mili-second timing for the line to straighten out in back and be horizontal while the rod loads up. Then gently deliver your cast.
It won’t tail!
So…in short m’friend, it’s all in your back cast! It’s SO important.
Jeremy…been there…doing that! But it’s better now.
I am going to resay just about everything everyone is saying, but differently, since people connect to different descriptions and visuals. My first thought is to move the tip of the fly rod in a straight line when casting front or back. The Joan Wulff comment about steady power application is certainly appropo, but I would go further. When the power stroke is done, the rod should stop. If I get windknots I can usually reflect on the casting stroke and recognize that I stopped my casting stroke, and moved the rod tip while waiting (not waiting quite long enough I might add) for the rod tip to load. It brings the front cast forward on a different plane which can cause tangles (cute term for windknots). A self-made video could help immensely. It may help you visualize some of the maladies we are presenting to you in words.
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Often on the presentation cast, right after the power stop, the caster will allow his hand to move forward rather quickly on a concave path. That also will produce tailing loops and wind knots.
Bob
“Just pick it up and lay it down!!”…frustrated Florida Keys guide
Despite editing my post several times, I don’t think I ever got it right. From Joan Wulff’s Dynamics of Fly Casting DVD,
“The primary cause of tailing loops is the lack of a loading move.”
In other words, on casts that produce tailing loops, there is no “loading move”. Therefore, tailing loop casts must start off with a “power snap”.
It’s interesting to me in that it’s the beginning of the forward cast that determines whether or not a tailing loop is produced, not the end. That may be just the opposite of what many people believe.
Apologies. I’m just trying to communicate this information accurately, and am not an expert.
More than you ever wanted or cared to know about tailing loops, casting and wind knots:
To understand what causes a tailing loop and a wind or casting knot, one must know what a normal casting loop looks like. A normal loop has a leg that is following or traveling forward and a standing leg that is stationary and attached to the rod tip. Normally the two legs are separated by the width of the loop and usually in an overhead cast, the upper leg is the traveling leg and the lower leg is the stationary leg.
A wind knot occurs because the following leg (upper leg) of the casting loop falls below the standing leg (lower leg) AND the legs are in the same casting plane. Both situations must occur, that is the following leg must cross the standing leg and the legs must be in the same plane. A wind knot cannot occur if the two legs of fly line are in different casting planes.
Example - By using an elliptical casting motion, the back cast and forward cast are made in different planes and this separates the two legs of the loop formation. Even if the upper and lower legs of the loop formation cross vertically, they cannot catch on each other because they are separated horizontally in space; they are in different planes.
To see how this works, make a side arm back cast and then an overhead forward cast and you will see than the two legs of the loop are in different planes. Even if the upper leg of the loop drops down on the forward stroke, there is no lower leg of the loop to get tangle with because there is a horizontal separation of the two legs of the loop.
This type of cast is known as the Belgian Cast. Because this cast separates the planes of the back cast and forward cast, it is an excellent cast to prevent tangles not only for tailing loops but also when casting multiple flies or heavily weighted flies. It is also an excellent wind cast when your back is to the wind and it often called the Belgian Wind Cast for this reason.
However, the elliptical motion also causes the fly line to twist counter clockwise for a right handed caster. By casting in an ellipse we are moving the rod tip in a circle for each cast and this twists the fly line. If you always use the elliptical cast, you’ll need to allow the line to untwist every so often.
If we do cast in the same plane as in the usual overhead cast, wind or casting knots occur because of the crossing of the two legs of the cast. What causes the two legs to cross?
Well, there are many reasons which have been mentioned by the other posters. The fly line follows the rod tip. The rod tip follows the path of the hand except for one change. As we apply power to the rod, the rod flexes, and when it flexes, the effective rod length shortens so that the rod tip comes closer to the casting hand. If we move our casting hand in a straight line, we are not compensating for the shortening of the rod tip. The rod tip will travel not in a straight path but in a concave path as it flexes and straightens during the straight line casting motion. This concave path causes a dip in the path of the following leg of the fly line. At the stop, the rod tip straightens and the standing line will be above the traveling line, and as the two lines cross, you get a wind knot. So one cause is a straight line casting motion of the casting hand. The casting hand must move in a convex path to compensate for rod shortening. The bending of the rod must be done smoothly to mirror the path of the rod hand.
A second cause is a sudden application of power too early in the casting stroke - this is often called a jab. Again these sudden shock to the rod causes an acute bend and a dip in the rod tip path. The most common cause of this is when we try to cast farther than we commonly cast, and we give the rod that extra punch at the wrong time. The application of power must be smooth so that there is a progressive bend that we can compensate for.
The third cause is extending the hand forward in a straight line at the end of the cast, especially if you extend the rod tip up because you think a high rod tip will gain you more distance. Casters will do this because they think you can get more distance if you shoot line from a higher rod tip position. However this will cause a tailing loop and a casting knot.
What these casters do not realize is that when a rod straightens after the stop, the “effective rod length” (the distance of the rod tip from the hand) lengthens. If you don’t tip the rod tip down to compensate for this rod lengthening, the rod tip will be higher than the trailing fly line causing a tailing loop and casting knot. You need to tip the rod tip down after the stop to allow the fly line to clear the rod tip.
Another cause is a poor backcast and poor timing. If you start the backcast too early, you may not have enough loading power to complete the forward cast so your compensate with a jab which causes a tailing loop. If you start too late, the line may have fallen too low and you will get a tailing loop from the low following line.
A article in Fly Fisherman Magazine by Jim McLennan’s titled “The Creep & Jab” in the March 2008 issue gives another common cause. If a caster creeps after the backcast, they will often jab to compensate for the creep. See a video and explanation here:
http://flyfisherman.com/videos/creepandjab/index.html
There are a lot of other causes best explained here with video:
I found out early in the piece that to avoid “Wind Knots” All I had to do was leave the JERK at home. Most wind Knots are the result of starting the forward cast with a jerk by applying too much power to the start of the forward cast. Keep it Smooth and try for a smooth acceleration throughout the cast. Oh! Yes! Do not forget to wait for the Back Cast to straighten out before starting the forward stroke. IT HELPS. Have Fun. Jax