This may come across as a ridiculous question to those that have been around fly fishing for a long time, but what exactly is a Catskill Dry fly? I recently joined the beginners swap and on the shcedule for flies to tie are classic dry patterns that “don’t have to be Catskill dries.” This has really gotten a hold of my curiosity and is driving me nuts. I’ve tried looking at flies that I’ve heard refered to as Catskill Dries, such as the Light Cahill and the Coffin Fly, but all I seem to be able to gather from this is that they are all tied with fairly narrow bodies, upright wings, and sparse hackle. Am I on the right track here, or is there a formal definition that I haven’t been able to figure out? Any help would be greatly appreciated, because right now I’m completely stumped.
uh-oh.
mgj
Hey buckeye,
Darned good question! As I recall, that
question came up a couple of years back and
generated a lively thread. Over 100 posts
I believe. But, if a concise opinion was
ever agreed on, I must have missed it.G
Generally, they were I believe a group
of patterns that were popular in the
Catskills Region of New York back in the
day. I believe the thread discussed the
various tyers who were responsible for the
evolution of the patterns and such. But
for the life of me, I can not remember ever
reading a definitive answer to the question.
Perhaps Tyeflies will be able to give
you the short answer. I believe him to be
pretty knowledgeable in that area as I have
a box of catskills from his bench and they
are quite impressive. As I recall, he
was heavily invested in the catskills thread.
But before you get too worked up on the
catskill flies, you should know that no less
than the ever popular Fly Tyer magazine has
declared that catskill flies are obsolete.
Another topic that generated a bit of
discussion.G Good luck Buckeye. Hope you
get a concise answer. Warm regards, Jim
You might try this: [url=http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/oldflies/part359.html:aeb9b]http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/oldflies/part359.html[/url:aeb9b]
LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL
if you go to [url=http://www.cffcm.org/history.htm:97280]http://www.cffcm.org/history.htm[/url:97280] you will see that in early 1900’s a group of fishermen created a distinct school of fishing in the catskills. They developed patterns that were unique at that time. [url=http://flyfisherman.com/ftb/dhcatskill/:97280]http://flyfisherman.com/ftb/dhcatskill/[/url:97280] I believe a characteristic of the dry flies was alotof hackle which had them float high on the water. If I am not mistaken, Art Flick’s Streamside Guide has many of them highlighted.
jed
[This message has been edited by Jed (edited 08 December 2005).]
Once upon a time flyfishing in the US was wet fly fishing. Arround the turn of the century a number of Catskill fly fishermen, among them E.R.Hewett, inspired by our British cousins, started experimenting with the use of the dry fly. Since many of the Catskill waters were fished by fishermen from NYC, at that time the seat of magazine and book publishing, this new “dry fly” thing got a lot of press. It was a time of experimentation and inovation. Many of what are today standard dry flies got their start on these waters. We could say that the Quill Gordon, for example, is a Catskill fly since it is believed to have been created by Theodore Gordon in the Catskills.
There almost certainly was similar dry fly experimentation in other watersheds, but since the Catskills were fished by a particularly literary community of fishermen, and since many of them were part of the NYC publishing community, they got to write the history.
AgMD
Was of the opinion that a Catskill dry fly was tied in a certain manner, specifically the way the wings were tied in. With wraps around the base of each bunch of wing material to get them separated & standing a little forward of upright. A very classic tying technique that formed a distinctive thorax wrapped with hackle. Referenced from : The Dettes A - Catskill Legend by Eric Leiser.
buckeyetier,
There have been lengthly discussions about the Catskill dry fly, from a ‘style’ and a ‘pattern’ point of view. The obvious result is that there will never be a definite answer although there may be some consensus.
Anyway, and I don’t mean to put you off, if you are interested you’ll have to do some legwork and see for yourself. In the ‘Keyword Search’ (top of menu on the left) just type in Catskill and look among the resulting references. Here’s one that I found: [url=http://www.flyanglersonline.com/:dc13d]http://www.flyanglersonline.com/[/url:dc13d]
As others have pointed out, there were several threads that was quite exhaustive and very interesting on this subject.
Good luck and good reading. Maybe you can solve this Gordian Knot type question.
Allan
Jim, Morgan Lyle wrote the article BUT he did not say they were obsolete, but only posed the question “Are they Obsolete”. It stirred up a lot of people who mis-read it to ‘they are obsolete’. Funny how people do that…Read things into stuff that isn’t there. I see it in posts here all the time…lol.
Morgan raised the question because of all the new , or relatively new styles of tying and the proliferation of synthetic material.
Of course Dave K loved it as it generated a lot of ‘letters to the editor’.
I know nothing about Catskill flies.
However, I believe a fly is only obsolete if the fish not only refuses to take it, but walks out of the stream and hooks it in YOUR lip.
Otherwise, tie another one on! (…so to speak.)
There’s almost nothin’ wrong with the first lie, it’s the weight of all the others holdin’ it up that gets ya’! - Tim
Hi Mantis,
You are of course correct in your
assessment of the article in FT. My reply
was intended to be a bit tongue in cheek.G
As you said, the article did stir up quite
a bit of discussion at the time and I was
stirring the pot a bit. Obviously, the
Catskill type flies will never be obsolete
nor the intracacies imparted by their
creators forgotten. They have a strong
following of dedicated tyers, a number of
whom reside here on FAOL. I think many, if
not most of us followed the threads here on
FAOL with interest. Warm regards, Jim
Hi mantis,
Of course I read that article and was even asked to respond, which I did, by the Catskill Fly Tyer’s Guild. My letters were published in subsequent issues of the magazine. Just so you know, I did not read the title of the article nor interpret it to be declarative. I read the title as ignorant and dumb question but a question nonetheless.
Yes Dave K. loved it because it raised some interest in a magazine that is wanting for interested readers. So for that it was a great article. As far as the authors conclusion, there didn’t seem to be any.
Allan
A Catskill Dry is a martini ordered at the Antrim Lodge that consists of 100% Bombay Sapphire or Hendrick’s Gin and three olives that were dropped for 1 second into a jigger of dry vermouth.
It is best consumed after several hours of futile effort at the Junction Pool.
Sounds to me a lot like the south fork secret, some think it is a fly… but I heard when it got out 2 highschool teachers and the local preacher all left town. I don’t know if they ever heard of the Catskills?
Rich
I wanted to say thank you to everyone for the help. I had some time today and did a lot more digging on the topic. The link here on FAOL that LadFisher pointed out was particulary useful, and I think I may try to add some of those to my “need to tie” list. I also found a copy of the article from Fly Tyer, very intresting. Thanks again though to everyone for the help, because that’s what makes this site so great.
The question seems to come up a lot and I’ve taken a shot or two at anwsering it before, so I may as well give it try again. Keep in mind that there is no “official” definition of a Catskill dry, but when I hear the term or use the term, this is what it means to me.
First off, Catskill dry flies originated in the streams of the Catskills, starting with Theodore Gordon and ending with probably Art Flick. My understanding is that Rube Cross is the one who “finalized” the design, so to speak. After a time, the term “Catskill dries” came to mean a style of tying rather than specific patterns, since some flies which did not originate in the Catskills came to be regarded as Catskill dries because they fit the pattern. The Adams, coming from Michigan, is probably the best example of this.
The following characteristics define a Catskill dry for me, which by the way are intended to be Mayfly imitations as opposed to Caddis.
-
Divided wing made of quill strips, hackle tips, or flank feathers.
-
The wing is located somewhere forward of the center of the hook shank.
-
There is a single tail which is made of rooster hackle fibers or something similar.
-
There is a tapered body made of dubbing or quill stem.
-
Hackle fibers wound radially around the hook shank, both in front of and behind the wings.
Just as the Adams is a “Catskill style fly” that is not a “Catskill fly”, the Brown Bivisible is a “Catskill Fly” that is not a “Catskill style fly”.
Some good examples of Catskill style dry flies would be:
Quill Gordon
Hendrickson
March Brown
Blue Wing Olive
Light Cahill
Something like a Royal Coachman is fairly close to being a Catskill style fly, but the body materials deviate from the pattern a bit. Also, the Wulff flies have roughly the appearance of a Catskill style fly, but with different types of materials to improve floatation and durability.
Catskill flies are beautiful, and fun to fish. If they are obsolete, then somebody forgot to tell the trout.
[This message has been edited by gadabout (edited 08 December 2005).]
Drat! I was all set to leave this discussion alone because of all the previous threads available to anyone who wished to read up on the subject.
Then Gadabout opines about the Adams.
"Just as the Adams is a “Catskill style fly” that is not a “Catskill fly”, the Brown Bivisible is a “Catskill Fly” that is not a “Catskill style fly”.
Sorry, but it is neither not a Catskill in ‘style’ nor in ‘origination’. The Bivisible may not fit the ‘style’ portion but it certainly fits ‘origination’. It was a fly designed for, and first used in, the Catskills. There are more patterns that fit the ‘origination’ mode as well. The Neversink Skater, the Bumblepuppy, Pink Lady, Beaverkill, and others.
Allan
Allan
Looks like we have at least two, not totally incompatable, interpretations of the term “catskill fly”.
If you choose, you may use the term to define those flies which were created and popularised in the Catskills, by Hewett, Gordon, Flick, et al. , during the early part of the 20th century.
Or you may choose to apply the term to those flies which are tied in a style which is typical of those flies popularised by those historical figures.
Either way it is just words, and does nothing to take away from the history, or the flies.
AgMD
I can’t tell if the action of this thread is med- slow or not too fast LOL
Rich
Allan
posted 08 December 2005 09:14 AM ??? ??? ??
(Hi mantis,
Of course I read that article and was even asked to respond, which I did, by the Catskill Fly Tyer’s Guild. My letters were published in subsequent issues of the magazine. Just so you know, I did not read the title of the article nor interpret it to be declarative. I read the title as ignorant and dumb question but a question nonetheless.
Yes Dave K. loved it because it raised some interest in a magazine that is wanting for interested readers. So for that it was a great article. As far as the authors conclusion, there didn’t seem to be any.
Allan)
Gee Allan, On reading your letter to the editor it sure came across as if you thought it was declarative. And to say it was an ignorant and dumb question is really over the top, don’t you think? The whole point was that there are so many new materials, and styles of tying and even down in Roscoe, so many non traditional Catskill flies for sale in the bins at the shops, that the question was posed.
It has been posed here in the form of, “Do you still fish Catskill style flies” or something very similar.
The magazine also has a very healthy subscription, higher than in any time in the past.
Anytime an article elicits ‘letters to the editor’ it has done its job. You sound a little like a spurned woman when you write like that..
On another note:
You know Ed Van Put the well-known Catskill writer and fisherman. For years tied and fished various sized Adams…For many years.. So because he is certainly considered a Catskill tyer , just maybe the fly has step-son status in the Catskills. lol.