WF or DT

There has been a lot of talk about which is better for each person.
This is from a magazine article. There will be some who do not agree with this (myself for one cause I can cast a WF better) but, the mechanics do support this.

Flyline Tapers
Or, no, that’s not just an expensive piece of string
By Buzz Bryson & Paul Guernsey
If all fly lines of a given line weight weigh approximately the same, in grains or grams, then why would one line of any particular weight–a 5-weight, let’s say–cast any differently than another? In other words, is there really a difference in the performance of 5-weight fly lines from maker to maker, and model to model?

There can be significant differences from brand to brand and model to model for a given line weight (forgetting completely those differences attributable to densities). Remember that the line-weight standard is based on nothing more than the weight (in grains, as you pointed out) of the first 30 feet of the line, not including the level tip. Beyond–or past–that, manufacturers are free to taper the line as they wish.

Let’s start by looking at the most simple example: a couple of different level floating lines. What differences could there be? Well, first of all, while the weight is nominally the same, there could be slight differences in density, and thus diameter. A less dense line would float higher but, being larger in diameter, it would be more wind-resistant during casting.

Now, without changing the weight of that first 30 feet, but merely by redistributing it, let’s add a taper to the front of one of those lines. Suddenly, its casting characteristics change radically. A short, steep front taper will turn over the line quickly and surely–just the thing for plunking heavy nymphs. A long, gradual taper will land the fly softly; just what’s needed on flat, skinny water for sippers.

In fact, taper designs are now so sophisticated that all the manufacturers now sell many different lines in the same line weight for both general and specialized uses. For instance, that 5-weight you mentioned is available in “general purpose” tapers–but also in tapers specifically designed for heaving nymphs or streamers, and others for wafting tiny dries. The former typically have shorter heads, steeper tapers and heavier tips, all to facilitate better turnover of heavier flies with less false casting. The latter have longer front tapers and lighter tips, for light presentation. Both types can be found in your hypothetical 5-weight, and their performances are remarkably different.

In addition, manufacturers also use different cores and coatings, which affect stiffness and slickness, and thus casting. Stiff cores are used in hot weather, such as flats fishing, when normal lines tend to “wilt” and droop between rod guides, reducing casting distances. Conversely, when using that stiff line on a trout stream, the angler will find it really tough to keep the line straightened, and a kinky line is tough to cast, mend and keep afloat. --B.B.

What’s the difference in casting performance between weight-forward and double-taper fly lines? Under what circumstances should an angler choose the DT over the WF?

In order to avoid having to write a book here, we need to control our variables. Let’s assume we’re comparing a WF and a DT that both have the same tip, front taper, and belly–at least until the point at which the belly of the WF ends and it transitions into the rear taper /running line, while the DT’s belly continues on. Let’s further assume the head length of the WF is 30 feet and, for discussion’s sake, that we’re talking about a pair of 6-weight lines.

For the first 30 feet of line there will be no discernable difference between the two lines. However, at casts of 40 feet or greater, things begin to change. First, you’ll find the WF harder to control: Anything less than perfect timing will result in difficulty handling that much of the thin running line outside the rod tip. Second, you’ll feel the rod with the DT load more deeply. With that 10 extra feet of belly extended, the DT will increase in mass by roughly one line weight: At 40 feet your 6-weight DT line is now equivalent to a 7-weight. But that extra 10 feet won’t add quite as much to the WF line, and consequently won’t load the rod as much.

There’s another difference you should be aware of: While the 40 feet of DT will rollcast fine, the WF will give you trouble. Same reason: The 10 feet of lightweight running line outside the tip doesn’t have the “guts” to turn over the fatter belly in front of it.

When to choose which type of line? It makes no difference for shorter casts. For longer casts, and when you prefer to aerialize only 30 feet or so and shoot the rest, use the WF. Its head will carry the light running line better (farther). But if you like to aerialize a lot of line so you can precisely determine the length of your cast and not shoot as much, the DT offers more control.

–B.B.

From “Fly rod & Reel”, I believe. Good post, Fly Goddess. Things have gotten more complicated, for sure. But I’ve always bristled when I’ve read books and articles by supposed “experts” who say things like “for short casts, such as on small streams, use a WF line. The extra weight will load the rod better.” Really? I don’t think so. With some lines, Cortland 44 and S.A. XPS, the WF front taper is actually longer than the DT’s. Your post clarifies a lot. But, with a other lines (say, a S.A. Trout, or a Rio Classic), up to 30 feet, no diff. End of rant.

Chuck

A good read and something I agree with wholeheartedly!

REMEMEBER this thread for the 7,633 future posts that will be titled:

DT or WF; Which Should I Choose?

:wink:

Interesting Chuck, I was always told the opposit, that DT was the line for small streams, but even in the Orvis catalog, it states that the DT line for further improve your line management and mending capabilities, and a must for Roll Cast. Hmmmmm, I might have to rethink. I did take out two same weight, same brand lines last night. One a DT and The other WF. I was able to cast equal distance with both, but I did feel I had to POWER the DT more. The strokes where however, much prettier and smoother.

Second, you’ll feel the rod with the DT load more deeply. With that 10 extra feet of belly extended, the DT will increase in mass by roughly one line weight: At 40 feet your 6-weight DT line is now equivalent to a 7-weight. But that extra 10 feet won’t add quite as much to the WF line, and consequently won’t load the rod as much.

There’s another difference you should be aware of: While the 40 feet of DT will rollcast fine, the WF will give you trouble. Same reason: The 10 feet of lightweight running line outside the tip doesn’t have the “guts” to turn over the fatter belly in front of it.

When to choose which type of line? It makes no difference for shorter casts. For longer casts, and when you prefer to aerialize only 30 feet or so and shoot the rest, use the WF. Its head will carry the light running line better (farther). But if you like to aerialize a lot of line so you can precisely determine the length of your cast and not shoot as much, the DT offers more control.

:? I’m confused. I was always under the impression that it was recommended that beginners (like me) use a WF line because it was easier to cast. But I have never cast DT. I guess I had thought the advantage of the WF was that you could cast it further (that is, conventional overhead cast) and that you could roll-cast a DT further.

Wouldn’t this also mean that if you aerialize 60 - 70 ft of a DT that it is equivalent to a 9wt? How many ft of DT can you aerialize, practically speaking? …particularly for a slower action trout rod?

Uh oh, what have we started? :shock:

Tim, it is said that a WF is a better line for a beginner and I still think it is, However, if you are learning anyway, why not learn on a DT.
I was confused also cause for years I thought that WF was the way to go.
Casting a DT is going to take me a few minutes to get use to, but again if it is what you start with, you are already ahead of the game.
We all still have to remember, the casters ability is still the #1 issue here. Good casters can cast anything, but newbies can be taught.

Tim:

To add to what has already been said; when I first started flyfishing for trout I was told to go with a WF; why I don’t know because even though I was a beginner; the recommendation seemed to be more of a preference of the shop owner than anything else. In any case; I did as was suggested and I had no issues with WF lines and used them on all of my rods; bamboo & graphite with no complaints until about 3 years ago when I decided to try a DT for the first time; just because…

…maybe because I theoretically get two lines for the price of one ;).

I now use DT’s on all of my trout rods and to be honest; I honestly can’t say I feel any difference at the distances I normally cast which is as short as possible for fishing reasons; NOT because of casting ability. I also don’t find any difference in DT shooting ability except on really long casts because of the reason stated in the article. I’m not just talking about casting distances 30 feet or less either because I often cast 40-50+ feet but I’d be lying if I told you I feel a huge difference beyond 30 feet.

I almost never roll cast since I fish mostly dry flies so the difference in roll casting ability isn’t important to me but even when I have roll casted a WF at 30+ feet; I didn’t have a problem. With a DT I seem to notice that I can aerialize better looking loops at longer distances but I also notice the heavier DT belly and how it effects the loading of my rod.

But possibly the biggest reason I like DT’s for trout fishing is because Sci Anglers Trout and XPS DT’s have a shorter front taper than do the same lines in a WF. It is also a shorter front taper than either the Rio Classic or Selective Trout. Sci Anglers may be the only company who has this difference between SOME of their DT & WF lines. This was important to me for my small stream rods because the short front taper results in quicker loading at shorter distances which is important to me when casting the very short distances required on the dinky creeks I love to fish. I also have at least two rods that I tried several brands and tapers of lines on trying to get one that felt to my liking; the Mastery Trout DT ended up being the winner on both rods so I have believe that front taper difference was important.

Bottom line; if you are trout fishing at normal distances with a rod that isn’t super sensitive to variations in taper; I really don’t think it will matter whether you use a DT or a WF. For warm-water or saltwater or any fishing where you may need to cast 60-100 feet regularly; IMHO a WF is the ONLY way to go.

Don’t sweat all of the opinions and analysis; casting YOUR equipment will tell you all you need to know. It took me 20+ years to come to that conclusion and the realization that my leader length and tippet size had the ability to screw up my casting and presentation more than any rod or fly line I ever used.

Good luck!

[url=http://www.thesmilies.com:aa07c][/url:aa07c]

So, this front taper thing.

I haven’t been at this very long compared to some of you. I have only been fly fishing since I was thirty eight and I am only 62 now. So by many of your standards, I am a short timer.

But I can easily tell a WF from a DT. I have many of both and use them for different things. I can easily tell if a fly line is too light or too heavy for how I like a particular rod to cast and for the job I am doing with it. I can tell, particularly on long casts on salt whether the line finish is good. To me, if you know the basic engineering mechanics behind what is really going on and you try a few things, the difference is obvious.

But you know, for the life of me, I cannot tell the difference between a seven foot and a nine foot front taper. That is just a level of sophistication that is way beyond my ability. If I had both on identical rods, I know if I did not mark them I’d get them confused.

One time I had a salmon on and he wrapped my 6 wt around a log and I broke off about half of the front taper. Please don’t ask why I had a salmon on a 6 wt, that is fodder for another good anecdote. Just suffice it to say that it happened. Later, just for kicks, I tied on a new loop on the now bigger end and tried casting it. It was a little radical at first but after a few casts, I was able to get a reasonable presentation. Took a lot more concentration and care. So maybe the slight differences in front taper are like that. They just make it harder or easier to some small degree. I really can’t tell.

So I am going to leave it to you experts to sort that one out. It is well beyond me.

Bob Bolton

Bob:

FAR from expert here but the difference I am relating to is totally a short cast thing.

Just like your broken 6wt line; when you cast a short front taper line you get to the belly with less line out. Subsequently the rod loads better at shorter distances without doing the over-lining thing like some folks do when fishing short. Beyond 20 feet or so it becomes a moot point.

So yea, it is easier when you are only casting 10-15 feet ;).

hmmm, braided Dacron fly line core is about #27. You were fishing a 6wt with a leader stronger than #27? Details Bob, details! 8)

JC,
Oh the shame. I knew I shouldn’t have brought it up. Well, bye bye thread and hello story.

When I think about this and remember, it wasn't a salmon, it was a steelhead. We were fishing opening week at Indian Bridge on the Little M. I know you have been there a thousand times so you will know what was going on. There were still some steelhead in and I was drifting a hare's ear down through trying to pick up a brown down behind the redd. Nearly spawned out steelhead are very lithargic and beat up as you know and usually ignore the disturbance. Well, one didn't. He sort of half heartedly took the fly (or got fair/foul hooked and wandered over to a submerged sweeper and swam around it a couple of times with my best 6 wt. floating line. The line ended up firmly overhanded onto the submerged log and the steelhead calmly broke off the leader and swam away. It was old Bob who broke off the flyline tugging on it to get it out without going for a swim. Oh the horror.

Okay, now you can have the thread back. I once again proved 200 pounds of angler pulling on a flyline will not dislodge the log of ages firmly nestled at the botton of the stream.

Bob Bolton

Ill probably get my ears boxed but here goes. For over 30 years all I ever used was WF. Just this year I tried a DT and am now changing all my lines to DT. Seems to work better for me. I tend to agree about the so called experts. Id rather try on my own than go by someone else. Okay Im done now box my ears :lol:

lol, Ok, Bob, all is clear. Have been there, just have never done that,yet. 8)

Nah, Won’t box your ears… Im the same way. I try things for myself. I don’t like going by peoples opinions because there all different.

Great article BTW Fly Goddess!

okay,

after reading all this i am really confused. ive been using a DT since the mid sixties for all my trout fishing because i felt it gave me a more delicate presentation. for my meathead fishing in the surf, i have always used a WF to give me a little more power to push it into the wind.

based on this i have recently been considering using a WF on my 4 wt when nymph fishing to give me the ability to more easily handle heavier flys, but now after reading all this, it sounds like it doesn’t matter whether i use a DT or a WF, because the weight of the extended line is approximately the same for distances of 30 feet or so.

did i miss something here ???

John,

In my opinion, no, you didn't miss anything. Unless you are making a lot of very short light presentations like 10 feet of flyline plus leader. Then you may want to read Bamboozle's post. I seldom do that. Well, maybe brown trout at night but thats a slap cast with a #2 muddler. During the day, I fish dry and the fish would see me at that range.

So in my opinion and at my skill level, I can’t tell the difference up to 40 feet or so. WF lines for me are for shooting line and getting presentations out in the 45-70 foot catagory. Beyond that, big long rods with a lot of heavy line and a lot longer casting stroke are the order. Those guys actually carry nearly a full flyline in the air (usually some sort of shooting line or a heavy DT) and shoot backing.

But then, that is just my opinion.

Bob Bolton

If I said that I wasn’t still confused, I’d be lying. :? But it has been helpful nonetheless. I only have two rods and two lines (6wt & 4wt). And I have already overspent my fly fishing budget for the year, :frowning: so I’m not going to be buying multiple lines to try them all out. So I guess it sort of doesn’t matter right now.

I knew this before, but it is apparent that my main problem is my casting ability (or, um, actually the lack thereof). But I’m happy to say that I have improved quite a bit this year.

I like Bruce Richards’ explanation here: http://www.sexyloops.com/articles/wfvsdt.shtml. He seems to be saying that it doesn’t make a lot of difference in normal casting range. However, he does admit that there is a tendency to design DT’s for delicate presentations.

My experience is that DT lines are harder to shoot until you get a lot of line out. You have to get past the long belly section. Also, they don’t necessarily roll cast better. A 4 weight (or less) line is going to struggle to roll cast a decent sized fly. One designed for delicate presentations is going to be even worse.

You need to take the period off the end for the link to work.

Here…

http://www.sexyloops.com/articles/wfvsdt.shtml

Oh yeah, thanks for the link.

…I’d forgotten that I printed out this post to read at a later date, until I was just cleaning out my briefcase to make it a little lighter…

Tom White (God rest his soul) admonishes in his casting videos, and demonstrates, that you should NEVER AERIALIZE MORE LINE THAN YOU CAN HANDLE AND CONTROL. Don’t aerialize 60’ if you want to cast 70!

You only need 30-35 feet in the air with a good stroke and loop to shoot 60-70 feet. So, the problem with DT lines being equivalent to three lines higher is a moot point. The problem with most casters is they false cast 50’ of line to cast 40.

Jim