After reading a lot about felt vs. vibram boots I pulled the trigger yesterday and moved away from felt. I am going to test out my new boots tomorrow and see how they do. I am excited at the prospect of being able to hike in them I just hope “stick” as well as my felt boots. I am going to try them out first without studs/cleats, if I dislike the experience I will purchase some.
Sasha, way to go. I think the industry is moving that direction. I got my first pair - Simms Guide Boots - for Christmas and have loved them. I originally posted that I didn’t think they were much different than felt, but after about 10 trips I have to admit that they aren’t quite as good as felt, and I will probably go to the cleats come Summer. Anyway, I love mine and I’m sure you will too. They are a pleasure to hike in and they don’t pick up snow at all.
Kelly.
I read up on the different boots and I opted for the Rivershed boots. I went with them because (from what I read) they did not suffer from shrinking issues like some of their other models.
Stud em now, don’t wait until you slip and fall. Vibram does not grip on rocks as well as felt.
Tom Rosenbauer of Orvis has also made the statement in a podcast that the rubber soles are not yet the equal of felt. Quote, “We have been working on alternative soles for many, many, many years.?.When rubber first came out we tested them and the pretty much unanimous opinion here at Orvis was that they’re awful, they’re dangerous? Rubber soles are wonderful on sand, they’re wonderful on gravel, they are great on ice and snow, they are good on almost everything but slippery rocks, and slippery rocks are what a lot of wade on all day long. There are some new rubber compounds out there, Vibram has a compound that most of us are using for rubber soles that is better than previous generations of rubber, but still, if anyone tells you that their rubber soled wading boot grips as well as felt on slippery rocks THEY ARE LYING TO YOU! They haven’t used it enough. The only way to insure that rubber is as effective as felt is to have it studded. All of the rubber soled wading boots we well at Orvis come pre-studded? We made that stand that we are NOT going to sell a pair of rubber soled wading boots without studs.”
See podcast from March 5, 2010 below:
Stud em now, don’t wait until you slip and fall. Vibram does not grip on rocks as well as felt.
Tom Rosenbauer of Orvis has also made the statement in a podcast that the rubber soles are not yet the equal of felt. Quote, “We have been working on alternative soles for many, many, many years. When rubber first came out we tested them and the pretty much unanimous opinion here at Orvis was that they’re awful, they’re dangerous. Rubber soles are wonderful on sand, they’re wonderful on gravel, they are great on ice and snow, they are good on almost everything but slippery rocks, and slippery rocks are what a lot of wade on all day long. There are some new rubber compounds out there, Vibram has a compound that most of us are using for rubber soles that is better than previous generations of rubber, but still, if anyone tells you that their rubber soled wading boot grips as well as felt on slippery rocks THEY ARE LYING TO YOU! They haven’t used it enough. The only way to insure that rubber is as effective as felt is to have it studded. All of the rubber soled wading boots we well at Orvis come pre-studded? We made that stand that we are NOT going to sell a pair of rubber soled wading boots without studs.”
See podcast from March 5, 2010 below:
I agree, they are not as good as felt. They are pretty good. I got the freestones last spring and fished them all year with no studs. I had a wading staff on every trip and it was needed on a few mud and moss covered rocks. Where they really shine is coming out of the water up a muddy bank, and hiking, they grip very well. I will have studs in them this year and I think they will have all the grip I will need.
I will suggest to put the studs and be done with it. I just wanted to see how they grip without them.
With all due respect, Silver, and I think you know how much I respect your opinions from a recent exchange of PMs in which I expressed my regard for your contributions to this Bulletin Board …
From a reliable dictionary - LYING
"A lie (also called prevarication, falsehood) is a type of [b]deception[/b] in the form of an untruthful statement, especially with the intention to deceive others, often with the further intention to maintain a secret or reputation, protect someone’s feelings or to avoid a [b]punishment[/b] or repercussion for one’s actions. To lie is to state something that one knows to be [b]false[/b] or that one does not honestly believe to be true with the intention that a person will take it for the truth. A [b]liar[/b] is a person who is lying, who has previously lied, or who tends by nature to lie repeatedly - even when [b]not necessary[/b].
Lying is typically used to refer to deceptions in oral or written communication. Other forms of [b]deception[/b], such as [b]disguises[/b] or [b]forgeries[/b], are generally not considered lies, though the underlying intent may be the same. However, even a true statement can be used to deceive. In this situation, it is the intent of being overall untruthful rather than the truthfulness of any individual statement that is considered the lie."
Personally, I have a great deal of difficulty placing any credibilty in someone who discounts and dismisses anyone who disagrees with his conclusions as ignorant, incompetent, and dishonest and labels them a LIAR, with an intent to deceive others.
Seems to me that Rosenbauer needs a new attitude or a new editor, or both.
In the meantime, I guess I’ll have to rely on the opinions of others who are mature enough to respect honest disagreements and allow for differences in how people experience things. That would include you.
John
P.S. I do believe that in some situations, like tilted, very hard, and very smooth rock surfaces, studs can be dangerous, presenting a significant slipping hazard. I’m wondering if Rosenbauer included a warning about that hazard to go along with the decision they made to not sell rubber soled wading boots without studs ??
I received a pair of Simms Guideboots with the vibrum soles, along with studs for Christmas this year. I have been out a few times this year and found them to perform as well as my felt soles. I was hesitant to do any serious wading the first trip but after a few outings I have complete confidence in the vibrum with studs. Just my opinion.
Rodney
Unless somebody can tell me what advantage it is to Orvis to only sell rubber soles with studs, I think I’ll go with Rosenbauer. He might be wrong, but what reason has he to lie?
Probably because in the lawsuit happy society we live in, its much easier to mass produce studded boots for a few cents more than to spend time in court and legal fees. Buy the studs. Or go to wal mart and find some vibram boots and use them for wading then sue wal mart when the inevitable happens.
I encourage all of you to also carry a wading staff/stick no matter what type of footwear you use. After falling twice in the last two years, I feel a lot safer wading now. It also comes in handy when crossing streams. or walking thru the woods where you might encounter ‘unfriendly critters’.
I also will be buying new vibram boots with cleats shortly…
Let me be the first to encourage you to go with your original plan of trying the boots without studs to see how they work for you in the conditions you plan to fish. It may well be that studs would not improve the performance of your boots for the fishing you actually do in your waters.
Studs can present a hazard. If you don’t need them where you fish, why would you increase the prospects of having an accident and sustaining an injury ??
Getting wet is not nearly as serious as falling on smooth, hard, tilted rock, and smashing a wrist or elbow, for example. No thanks. Getting wet in a situation where you are exposed to being washed downriver into serious water means you probably made a major mistake before you slipped.
Wade fishing a large variety of streams and rivers in the Intermountain West in excess of 800 days over the past seven years, I’ve gotten wet a couple times, and injured several times. To put that in perspective, I almost always fish alone, most often in places where there is no help around, and I do play it very close to the vest because I am on my own. All the injuries, except one minor broken bone in my left hand, were on dry land where studs and a wading staff would have done no good at all, and carrying a wading staff probably would have made things worse.
You are definitely younger than me, and probably a lot stronger and fitter. I encourage you to weigh the risks of using studs and carrying a wading staff carefully before making those decisions.
John
John,
I ask you to listen to the entire podcast.
Stud placement is extremely important so that both rubber and studs; or in the case of felt soles, both felt and studs contact the surface. You are right in that anytime JUST the studs contact a hard surface, they can slip. Tom addresses stud placement and the extensive testing they did to find the right pattern on their boots.
As a boot tester for Weinbrenner, I’ve tested a few boots in my time. Studs should not project out of a material more than the material can compress. The fact is that the felt or rubber compresses allowing both studs and sole material to contact the surface. If the studs project too far, they can prevent the sole material from contacting the walking surface.
Look at the stud pattern on the boot below that I tested. Studs are too close together and project too far. I actually fell while standing on a rock while wearing these boots.They were cheaper imports Weinbrenner was thinking of marketing, but I told them not to import them.
Look at the boots below with the studs spread apart more and an absence of studs at the ball of the foot. The side view shoes that the studs are flush with the felt. You can’t even see the studs. Also notice the stacked heel on the side view. The top of a round rock would have the edge of the stacked heel digging into the surface. The lack of a staked heel on the cheepo imports made for poor traction.
The current version of the Simms Freestone below also has a one piece sole WITHOUT a stacked heel. there is one piece sloping heel. This is a money saving design that limits the heel cutout and limits the amount of the curve of a smooth rock the heel can accommodate. I hate one piece sole/heel construction because it limits the the traction on sloping hard surfaces. There is a reason that top quality hiking boots have a separate sole and heel construction. The front of the heel digs in while going down slippery slopes and standing on round rocks.
I think you and I are pretty much on the same page ( except regarding Rosenbauer ).
Last time this came up, I pointed to a field test by several independent testers who reported their results testing the Simms / Vibram sole in the then current issue of Fly Fish America ( I think that was the publication ). They compared it favorably to felt for almost, if not all, situations, and better than felt than most situations.
Since I have used felt but have not used the Simms / Vibram product, I don’t have a personal opinion on how they compare. It is interesting that a good number of people are saying very positive things about their experiences with that product, and implicitly, at least, that it’s as good as felt. I do wonder if the conditions they are fishing are the really slick rock situations where felt grip tends to excel ??
Be all that as it may, since that last discussion, I’ve had the opporunity to look at the Simms / Vibram soles several times. The first thing that bothered me, more of an intuitive thing based on extensive hiking and wading experience, is the one piece flat sole. Regardless how much I think of Simms for their fly fishing equipment and how much I think of Vibram as a sole designer and producer, I just don’t favor that design. Probably for the very reasons you’ve given in your post.
The other thing that bothers me about the Simms / Vibram sole is that it just seems so large, and the boots so heavy - out of proportion to what I think of as normal boot sizes and weights. That could be something between a senior moment and a wild imagination at the times I’ve seen that boot, but I really didn’t like the boots. I guess if I were going to stay in a very small area over the course of a fishing day, they would be just fine. But if I were going to cover much distance, both in and out of the water, which is what I much prefer and usually do, I just can’t see them being the boots for me.
That is one reason I am very interested in Sasha’s experience with the boots he has chosen, and how they work for him without the studs. I think the fishing he does is more like what I do. The boots he chose might prove to be what would work best for me.
Another possibility, and one I am considering, is to buy either a wet wading shoe or wading boot that I like and having it resoled with the Vibram sole that Simms is using. I don’t know if a resoler would be willing to the do the stacked heel that you and I like, but that would be a big step forward ( pun intended ). Simms does give a listing of resolers who will resole boots for around $44, plus labor. Most days I am in Missoula, I drive near or right by the local resoler’s shop.
Thanks for your very positive and helpful response to this discussion.
John
Wow my little thread seems to have opened a can. I posted a brief description of my first experience with them in my report thread. Basically in the river I fished in yesterday they performed well. I am extreemly happy with them so far. On the river I fished yesterday they performed better than my old felt boots in all aspects. I will have to test them out on other rivers to get a better idea though.