Wading boot sales

FAOL Community Fly Anglers Online
1

I see a lot of sales going on Felt bottomed wading boots. I know that some states have outlawed the use of felt because in those states there are issues with transferring invasive species. In my state we have no such law at this time but it will come I am sure but by that time I will need a new pair of boots anyhow.

I don’t travel out of state much to fly fish but if the opportunity came up I might as well have a boot that will work for that too. Being the bargin hunter that I am though I am trying to weight my options.

Is there a web site that tells you which states allow felt and which ones make them illegal without going through each and every possible state regulation?

Two states that I am thinking about right away are Arkansas and Utah. So are the rest of you spending the big bucks on the new Simms wiz bang boot with special receptible for studs or are you snapping up the bargin priced felt soled boots?

Rick

2

Rick, since I needed new boots anyway, and because of some recent ankle surgery and the need for some very supportive boots, my family got me the new ‘wiz bang’ Simms with the Vibram soles and, after their first use last week, I’m sold. The future is coming, and though I much prefered felt, I am totally impressed with the new soles, especially when walking on snow - NO buildup of any snow on the soles. I could not have gone fishing this past week if I had been using felt; the buildup and resultant rolling of ankles due to that buildup would have put me back in surgery. Now, are they for everyone? I don’t know the answer to that, but from what I see happening and the industry being proactive in developing and marketing the new rubber soles, it appears that felt will be done away with whether states mandate it or not. How long, is anyone’s guess, but I made the switch out of necessity and I won’t be looking back.

Kelly.

3

Rick

I think the only way to find out is go to the DNR website of states you are interested in and see what they have to say. I heard that felt is going to be banned by all in 2011, but I have nothing to back that up with.

Dave

4

Here are opposing views:

Will Vibram soles actually reduce contamination?

http://singlebarbed.com/2009/08/10/singlebarbed-says-wheres-the-beef-in-the-absence-of-hard-science-are-we-being-railroaded-into-a-felt-sole-ban-that-may-be-negligible-factor/

Secondly, I personally disagree that Vibram outperforms felt other than in winter wading over snow. I wrote this on a previous thread:

I suggest you listen to Tom Rosenbauer’s Orvis Podcast or read Preston’s article in Fly Fishing and Tying Journal, Winter 2010, pg. 18. Tom Rosenbauer of Orvis stated that at this time, NONE of the rubber soled boots equal felt in overall traction.

Preston tested “Old Felt Soled” Weinbrenners against New Rubber Soled Simms, Chota, Cloudveil, Korkers, Patagonia, & LL Bean boots. Preston tested multiple boots and not only the Simms boots, and in that regard, is a more comprehensive test of available rubber soled boots. Although I believe the the conditions of the test favored the new rubber soles, none of them were a good as the USED WEINBRENNERS.

As Preston said in an earlier post, " Under the more slippery conditions of summer and fall none of them quite provided the grip of felt." In his article Preston stated, "It is still my, admittedly subjective opinion, that except under the cleanest (winter and cold) water conditions, rubber soles, do not yet provide the same traction as felt soles."

Preston used non-studded boots because he wanted to test the pure traction of rubber vs felt. I agree with Preston’s method since adding studs is not a pure test since the type of metal and surface area of the studs affects traction. Aluminum is the softest metal and provides the most traction, carbide points the least. Sheet metal screws being softer than carbide are intermediate. Carbide studs last the longest.

I need to state that I was a wading boot tester for Weinbrenner. I still use my original pair of test Weinbrenner Propex wading boots for Montana. So I think I know a bit about wading boots.

As a boot tester I know that new felt soles have better traction than used felt soles because thicker felt compresses and conforms to surface irregularities and increases traction. Worn thinner felt does not equal new felt in traction. If Preston had a new pair of Weinbrenners, I believe the difference between felt and rubber would have been greater.

I personally use separate sets of boots for Montana and for my native state of Wisconsin. This is a much better solution IMHO that a single boot set, even of rubber that will be used in multiple watersheds. Rubber soled boots still have fabric, laces, crevices and sewing that can harbor invasives. If you have a copy of Preston’s article you can see that appears to be considerable fabric in the boot tongue, inner lining, and side panels of the Patagonia Riverwalker boot, which provided the best traction of the rubber soled boots he tested. All exposed fabric can harbor Dydimo.

Isolation with separate boots is the only solution that will keep invasive from spreading. Even then, other tackle such as Dacron line backing, furled thread leaders, wader fabric, gaiters, wading staffs, etc. can be carriers. Even flies are suspect.

Rubber soled boots can be sold on the basis of reducing but not eliminating the possibility of contamination.

5

Here are opposing views:

Will Vibram soles actually reduce contamination?

http://singlebarbed.com/2009/08/10/singlebarbed-says-wheres-the-beef-in-the-absence-of-hard-science-are-we-being-railroaded-into-a-felt-sole-ban-that-may-be-negligible-factor/

Secondly, I personally disagree that Vibram outperforms felt other than in winter wading over snow. I wrote this on a previous thread:

I suggest you listen to Tom Rosenbauer’s Orvis Podcast or read Preston’s article in Fly Fishing and Tying Journal, Winter 2010, pg. 18. Tom Rosenbauer of Orvis stated that at this time, NONE of the rubber soled boots equal felt in overall traction.

Preston tested “Old Felt Soled” Weinbrenners against New Rubber Soled Simms, Chota, Cloudveil, Korkers, Patagonia, & LL Bean boots. Preston tested multiple boots and not only the Simms boots, and in that regard, is a more comprehensive test of available rubber soled boots. Although I believe the the conditions of the test favored the new rubber soles, none of them were a good as the USED WEINBRENNERS.

As Preston said in an earlier post, " Under the more slippery conditions of summer and fall none of them quite provided the grip of felt." In his article Preston stated, "It is still my, admittedly subjective opinion, that except under the cleanest (winter and cold) water conditions, rubber soles, do not yet provide the same traction as felt soles."

Preston used non-studded boots because he wanted to test the pure traction of rubber vs felt. I agree with Preston’s method since adding studs is not a pure test since the type of metal and surface area of the studs affects traction. Aluminum is the softest metal and provides the most traction, carbide points the least. Sheet metal screws being softer than carbide are intermediate. Carbide studs last the longest.

I need to state that I was a wading boot tester for Weinbrenner. I still use my original pair of test Weinbrenner Propex wading boots for Montana. So I think I know a bit about wading boots.

As a boot tester I know that new felt soles have better traction than used felt soles because thicker felt compresses and conforms to surface irregularities and increases traction. Worn thinner felt does not equal new felt in traction. If Preston had a new pair of Weinbrenners, I believe the difference between felt and rubber would have been greater.

I personally use separate sets of boots for Montana and for my native state of Wisconsin. This is a much better solution IMHO that a single boot set, even of rubber that will be used in multiple watersheds. Rubber soled boots still have fabric, laces, crevices and sewing that can harbor invasives. If you have a copy of Preston’s article you can see that appears to be considerable fabric in the boot tongue, inner lining, and side panels of the Patagonia Riverwalker boot, which provided the best traction of the rubber soled boots he tested. All exposed fabric can harbor Dydimo.

Isolation with separate boots is the only solution that will keep invasive from spreading. Even then, other tackle such as Dacron line backing, furled thread leaders, wader fabric, gaiters, wading staffs, etc. can be carriers. Even flies are suspect.

Rubber soled boots can be sold on the basis of reducing but not eliminating the possibility of contamination.

6

I don’t live in Utah, but I believe Felt boots are allowed. Looking at their 2010 regulations book they do not state that they are outlawed.

I’m sure Goddess will drop in and help u out though.

Paul

7

I guess they’re gonna outlaw bears from the streams now? They sure have a lot of stuff on the bottom of their feet that looks like felt.

:rolleyes:

8

Silver

I remember this discussion and still agree with you. I live in IA and have no plans to replace my felt boots. And I wear aqua stealth soled boots in the winter. If I were to be planning a trip to CO or MT I would look at Korkers. Not only because of the price but from what I’ve read their “sticky” soles do a pretty good job.

Dave

9

There is a great article in this months FlyFishing magazine called “Where the Rubber meets the Rocks” and it was written by Preston Singletary. The main scope of the article is Felt-soled wading boots will be outlawed and what rubber soled boots will replace them. After reading the article and hearing Preston Singletary opinion, his testing results from wearing six different rubber soled boots from several different companies I feel they need to come up with something equal to a felt-soled boots, you just need to read the article. I feel the rubber soled boots will cause many fly fisherman getting a sore butt or a wet ***:frowning: Check it out

10

That was the article by Preston I was referring to. An old pair of Weinbrenners tested better than new rubber soled boots.

My friend was the owner of Weinbrenner and that is how I became a boot tester. He gave me all the boots I wanted, and I am fortunate to have a lifetime supply of newer Propex studded Borger Ultimate Boots just like the ones below. They are the best ones Weinbrenner ever made.

They cured the seam blow out problem with the propex ballistic nylon. They are a bit lighter and the ballistic nylon is more durable than the artificial leathers. It also dries faster. Overall it is a way better material for wet strength and durability. I am still using the original prototype test model as my Montana boots but it needs new felt and some of the studs have pulled out. I doubt many new boots would last 15 years like these prototypes and we made some improvements in the production model on the welt stitching.

Unfortunately, they did not catch on and are not made anymore so if you find a pair, I’d recommend them over the original model.

A key feature of a good boot is the stacked separate heel piece that creates that notch between the sole and heel that helps in walking down slopes and give you that edge to hold onto the tops of round rocks. Modern wading boots have gone to a cheap single piece sole and heel combo and that is one reason the old used Weinbrenners outperformed the newer boots. I personally feel that if the rubber boots had a separate stacked heel, they would be way better.

Compare the stability of walking down a slope with a pair of tennis shoes with a tread but a flat sole without a separate heel vs a pair of boots or shoes with a separate heel. You will find that your foot will slide forward in the boot but the heel will dig in and the boot bottom will hold. In the flat shoe, your foot slides forward and then the shoe slides down the slope because there is no edge to dig into the hill. You find yourself putting your shoe sideways so the edge of the sole will dig into the dirt. You need to form an artificial heel edge with the sideways sole edge.

That is what I am talking about. That same edge effect works on rounded rock tops.

11

That was the article by Preston I was referring to. An old pair of Weinbrenners tested better than new rubber soled boots.

My friend was the owner of Weinbrenner and that is how I became a boot tester. He gave me all the boots I wanted, and I am fortunate to have a lifetime supply of newer Propex studded Borger Ultimate Boots just like the ones below. They are the best ones Weinbrenner ever made.

They cured the seam blow out problem with the propex ballistic nylon. They are a bit lighter and the ballistic nylon is more durable than the artificial leathers. It also dries faster. Overall it is a way better material for wet strength and durability. I am still using the original prototype test model as my Montana boots but it needs new felt and some of the studs have pulled out. I doubt many new boots would last 15 years like these prototypes and we made some improvements in the production model on the welt stitching.

Unfortunately, they did not catch on and are not made anymore so if you find a pair, I’d recommend them over the original model.

A key feature of a good boot is the stacked separate heel piece that creates that notch between the sole and heel that helps in walking down slopes and give you that edge to hold onto the tops of round rocks. Modern wading boots have gone to a cheap single piece sole and heel combo and that is one reason the old used Weinbrenners outperformed the newer boots. I personally feel that if the rubber boots had a separate stacked heel, they would be way better.

Compare the stability of walking down a slope with a pair of tennis shoes with a tread but a flat sole without a separate heel vs a pair of boots or shoes with a separate heel. You will find that your foot will slide forward in the boot but the heel will dig in and the boot bottom will hold. In the flat shoe, your foot slides forward and then the shoe slides down the slope because there is no edge to dig into the hill. You find yourself putting your shoe sideways so the edge of the sole will dig into the dirt. You need to form an artificial heel edge with the sideways sole edge.

That is what I am talking about. That same edge effect works on rounded rock tops.

12

I use to love that boot but never see them anymore.

13

This place has the Weinbrenner boots. http://www.discountfishinginc.com/
Unfortunately not an FAOL sponsor, but my experience with this place has been excellent for many years & the prices have always been great.
Mike