Gig,
You have just stated a truism that everyone should realize, “If all you have to offer is cheap labor, there is someone in the world who will probably be willing to do it cheaper.” You have to have sometime else to offer the customer.
Yeah. China knocks out several million Adams, Woolly Buggers, Clousers, and stock patterns, most likely tied by children in sweat shops, and they sell them over here for next to nothing. There is no way a tier here can compete on that level. And IMO most anglers that don’t tie, don’t even realize the difference in quality between a mass Chinese-tied Pheasant-Tail Nymph, or an American-tied one. They probably think they are just going to lose it somewhere anyway, long before it wears out, so why pay more than you have to?
On a personal note, I don’t think I have ever bought a fly in my life. I learned to tie long before I ever touched a fly rod. I can’t imagine fly fishing, without tying my own flies.
ah , i think i have bought a few samples here and there over the years, to be truthful.But as Gigmaster said i wouldn’t even think about fishing a fly that i or a buddy haven’t tied.
Just tell me they are taking #24 and I head right to the flyshop!
If I have to fish a #24 to catch a fish I am heading straight to the local bar.
fishbum
Commercial tying takes a special individual and you will supplement your income, but few are successful at making it a career. First decide what you will be tying" Streamers, Dry Flies, Wet Flies, Realistic Flies, Saltwater Flies, Bass Flies, Atlantic Salmon Flies, etc… Do your homework and visit all of the shops in your State, maybe even a few States. Carry a small notebook and write down the names of the local favorites. Don’t forget to write down the prices too! Don’t tip your hand too early. I would not recommend approaching the owner or Shop Manager on your first visit, remember…you are just doing your homework.
The next step is to figure your cost. Hooks, furs, feathers, head cement, floss, thread, etc… Now tie a fly and make sure to go slow enough that you are using plenty of cement and applying the correct pressure to the materials. Nobody will buy your flies if they cannot reuse them over and over again. How much do you need to make hourly? Now figure your cost ( all materials and time ) your profit has not been detirmined yet, and I bet you are already at a price that is higher than the shop was selling them for. Now how many flies do you have to tie in one hour to meet that wage? Can you do that well? Still want to be a commercial tyer?
Perhaps the hourly wage is not important? If you just want to tie flies and make some money doing that, I suggest you offer your flies on consignment to the shops. When they sell, you get paid. Before you contact the shops, make sure that you have 2 dozen of each fly for each shop. Never send them anything but the very best and they will ask for more. If you are asked to tie something that you have not tied before, request a sample of what they expect. That way you can match color and style.
Have fun doing what you like. If it becomes a job…then it’s time to slow down or stop and go fly fishing.
What Dave said is great… I tie what I call semi-production or semi-commercial. I tie for 7 or 8 different shops and I tie all sorts of different things from dries to streamers to softies to bass flies… all across the board really. Most of my flies are traded for shop credit and that also comes with a super steep discount on retail pricing. I’m not doing it to make a living I’m doing it to help perpetuate my habit to untold levels of obsession… (not healthy). It’s tough to even try to make money at this, the only time I get “paid” for tying is when it’s a special order from an individual, then often times I broker that through the shops as well since I never try to bite the hand that feeds me. And to boot I have not spent more than a couple hundred bucks on tying materials in the last year or more and my collection of tying materials and stuff has nearly tripled (the wife is about to give me a whole room in the house so I don’t have to use a desk in one and a closet in another and then part of a room in the basement!!!)
Steve
China knocks out several million Adams, Woolly Buggers, Clousers, and stock patterns, most likely tied by children in sweat shops, and they sell them over here for next to nothing
I think you will find that not many of your flies come from China & certainly not children in sweatshops. For that try Nike & Reebok. Far more likely Kenya & African countries. Whilst they are certainly tied cheaply you have to remember that the income per capita is considerably lower than a more affluent country, so income, any income is most welcome in that country. In Kenya for example there are some UK fly tying companies that employ handicapped people to tie flies one like Fulling Mill make a reasonable job of it. You want quality they you have to pay for it I am afraid. Look around at your labels China makes just about every thing we use & wear, you may not like or agree it but it is a fact of todays life.
Tight Lines
I know there used to be a lot of flies coming from Thailand as well. Mostly made by women, not children.
During the Industrial Revolution (even in the USA) we learned that most little children couldn’t do much for detail work, as their minds strayed, no matter how they were beaten. China, Africa, other parts of Asia are finding this out as well, as they go through their Industrial Revolution. We, in the West, just look on with our Rose Colored Glasses. Not trying to excuse child labor, but kids who labor are there for a reason, just like our ancestors. Our forebears worked as kids for a reason…and it is the same reason kids in other countries work today. I gotta believe that most parents want better for their kids, but life overwhelms that.
For the new commercial tyer…Don’t get discouraged worrying about what the shop is paying for their flies or what country they are coming from. If you are making the very best of whatever flies you plan to offer, then you will be in demand. Start with a sample of the very best, either purchase online from a well know tyer, or go to the shows, meet and greet and make your purchase.
Once you cannot tell your flies from their flies…you will be ready to approach the shops. A good fly shop will have a locally tied section, and those flies aren’t cheap. That’s the market you want to be in…and if the shop doesn’t offer locally tied flies? I would encourage them to let you be their first tyer. If they decline your offer? Their loss, now on to the next shop!!!
Hi Group,
We’ve been watching this thread with interest. We don’t want to rain on anyones parade but don’t forget the taxes on top of all the other great suggestions (and ideas) that have been discussed. They happen every quarter and include sales tax (if you make retail sales in your state), Federal Excise Tax (Form 720), Social Security/Self Employment Taxes and state & federal income taxes. While we are talking about running a business, don’t forget equipemnt and vehicle depreiciation <SP>, writing off part of your house (place of busines), business travel, milege and the list goes on.
If you decided to say the heck with all of that and work-under-the-table be careful, that straight across trade of tied flies for a “new toy” can seem like a good deal until you get caught and end up paying IRS penalties after a tax audit. How do we know this, Al got too big with his under-the-table operation and in 78 learned about tax audits. He also learned more about audits in 81, 82, 84, 87, 94 and 97; once you get on the “list” (whatever that means) you are more prone to an audit (or that’s what we think). By the way the 78 and 97 audist are the only ones where he/we had to pay penalties. In 78 he was under-the-table and had to pay back taxes but from that day forward he (and we) have been legit. The 97 audit was for a mistake on end-of-the-year inventory; our point is that once you get on the IRS radar you can expect to be checked. OR maybe other self employed business people also run into the same problem. We would be interested to learn about that from those of you who are self employed on this group.
Some on this group have already discussed insurance so we wont’ go there except to say it really gets expensive if you become a totally self employed. Until recently Gretchen worked outside the home to bring home the insurance. In the recent past Al went fishing with 5 other guys in the fly fishing business; all of them were getting their insurance from their wives job.
Please understand we are not trying to tell you to NOT be a commercial tier but understand it is a BUSINESS with responsibilities/expectations just as much as a person who buys, remdodels and sells houses in addition to his/her day job. (by the way, we’ve been involved in that as well but in today’s environment it may not be a very good life-style choice <G>). What ever direction all of you decide to go if you elect to be under-the-table and “just make a few trades,” be careful who you brag to about it… Take care & …
Tight Lines - Gretchen & Al Beatty
www.btsflyfishing.com
All very true concerns Gretchen, Thank you. I am not sure what the level of income is for a “hobby” vs “Business” so have a conversation with your tax person before you take the plunge. Also know that this is the first year that Uncle Sam is requiring that paypal report your income to the IRS, so even ebay sellers must now register as a business for 2011. Regardless of what you do…keep accurate records. I keep monthly folders for sales, shipping, purchases, etc. ( match receipts with paperwork ), then check and re-check everything.
It could be argued, with no small amount of validity, that what tiers get here, stateside, is tantamount to a sweat shop wage. I think most would be stunned at how well the flies from China are made. Some of the worlds best tiers have their pattern made in China. I buy bugs all the time…sometimes because the guy behind the counter helped me. Most of the time because try as I may, I cannot tie all the patterns I would like to use.
sweat shops?..
If Im not mistaken…
anything under $5000 “In profit” is a hobby…
anything over is a business…
But in the state of Missouri you have up to 3 years to show you profit of over $5000…
so I have to show my profit in fly tying (Over 5000… total profit… minus all cost of materials)… also in guiding…
for either one not to be considered a hobby
That number sounds right. There is a big difference between the taxes you pay for a hobby and the taxes you pay for a business.
Hobby or Business?
Check this link to the horses mouth.
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=169490,00.html
fishbum
Dave,
Actually, the biggest difference between a ‘business’ and a ‘hobby’ are related to what you can DEDUCT, not what you PAY.
They’ll allow you to ‘break even’ with a hobby, but not use losses there to offset other income. For a business, you can use losses to offset other income, but only for so long…
The concept is that the start up costs are usually high for any given enterprise, thus losses are expected until that is overcome.
I know of no ‘table’ or ‘rule of thumb’ that attaches a dollar amount to whether or not your enterprise is a business or a hobby. What I learned over the years is that if you take in money for anything, you have to report it as income. It’s how that amount you take in compares to the expenses you deduct that determines this. Basically, if you make a ‘profit’ you have to report it and pay taxes on it.
If you want to keep yoiurself out of the clutches of the evil IRS, find a good tax expert and be SURE you know what you are doing before you do it. Yes, you’ll have to pay for this advice, but it IS deductable as a necessary business expense ;).
Buddy
Here’s an ‘example’ that I’m familiar with that illustrates the difference between ‘business’ and ‘hobby’:
A friend of mine had a well paying job that he’d been doing for many years. He was also a pretty good weekend tournament bass fisherman. Doing that at a high level is VERY expensive. Boat, gas, gear, etc. really add up. But, he does occasionally win some prizes. Thus he has reportable ‘income’ from his hobby.
He’s allowed to ‘duduct’ the expenses of his ‘hobby’ up to the point where he offsets his ‘earnings’ from it. But, since the value of his winning in most years does not exceed his ‘expenses’, he can’t duduct the ‘loss’ incurred in his hobby from the income he earns in his ‘real’ job.
If, in an occasional year he actually makes a ‘profit’ from his hobby (he’s won a couple of boats and such), he does have to report it as income and pay applicable taxes on it.
He’s not using the money from his ‘hobby’ to pay his bills or other living expenses. He pays his withholding taxes and Social Securtity, etc. through his ‘real’ job. He doesn’t have to report and/or pay quarterly withholdings on his ‘hobby’.
The beauty of this is that he can do this for as long as he wants without having to show business growth or efforts at it.
Would work for a fly tyer? I don’t know, you’d need to consult a tax expert to be sure.
Buddy
Exactly… I pay my excise taxes on rods that I build for people and I report all of those expenses (including my fly tying expenses) but most of them I do not claim as a loss for a business, I simply claim them as income most often time atthe end of the year I am in the “hobby” section but I have had to pay out a couple times. Also do remember that you can use your time as a cost… if you spent time you have to figure what your time is worth.
Steve