I am stuck in a rut. I recieved my first rod kit today and started to find the spine and as I understand the spine is the stiff side but my problem is that I think it has two spines. It is an IM7 2pc. 9’ 10wt. blank I got it from Neal’s Fishing Tackle on the Rod building suppliers page.So my question is were do I put the guides? Any help will be appreciated
Welcome trainee!
Am in the same boat, I just started my first build and am coming across the same situation. I do have a good book by Tom Kirkman, who has written for FAOL in the past. Check out the Rod Building section under FEATURES and look at Rod building tips. Also follow a thread below from a couple of days ago that dealt with a similar question.
From reading Kirkmans book and watching videos from LA Garcia and Artie Hebert, I can say that the answer to our question becomes even more muddled. Near as I can tell, if you listen to different builders you will get different answers on what “spine” to place your guides on, as well as what exactly is THE SPINE. Kirkman would say that the spine is actually where the rod is naturally at rest when loaded (which he calls “the relaxed curve”), and that the stiff areas are not what is technically referred to by most rod builders as “the spine”. Do the normal bend test. Kirkman calls the outside of what he calls the “relaxed curve” as “the spine”. The harder “spines” are what he refers to as the “distressed curve”. Kirkman would say that you put the guides either on top of or below the outside edge of the relaxed curve. This will insure good presentation and distance. In his book, he also says that some builders put the guides with the outside edge of the distressed curve on the bottom of the rod for an advantage in fighting fish. This is more in line with what guys like Garcia and Hebert say in their videos. Those two will also say that you can put the guides opposite side to give a more delicate presentation.
All in all it is still confusing. However, if you identify the two different types of curves you can at the very least tape up guides and the real seat, then line it and test it in various locations.
Otherwise, let’s both sit back and see what others on the board have to say.
Your right - ask 20 rod-builders where to put the guides in relation to the spine you will get 20 different answers!
I grew up in Southern California where I saw many ocean fishermen come in with blown up or twisted rods. This will occur because the pressure put on by a big Tuna could twist the rod if the guides were not placed in-line with the spine. I relate this to hooking a Salmon on a 5wt rod. I did that once!
Therefore I go with the idea of placing the guides on the inside of the relaxed curve so the rod bends easiest towards the fish. I credit this to saving my 5wt with that 12 # Silver Salmon.
Now for the other 500 opinions!
Let No One Walk Alone
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Bill
I’m not sure if I have found the spine. I may have found the most flexible sides because when I bend it and roll it it “jumps” to the flexible sides and when I bend it inbetween the flexible sides it wants to twist to the flexible sides. So I don’t know which is the spine but to confuse things more my commercially made Shakespere rod has the guides on the side that wants to twist to the flexible sides.So I think I will try to place the guides on the most flexible of the two sides because I read that the softer side will cast farther and as Panfisher said it seems less likely to break even though I’ll be fishing largemouth with a 10 wt. rod. Muskie and Pike are probably as big as I will ever fish unless I catch a Gar. Any input is still welcome I’m still waiting for the thread so I have time to tape the guides and test it out so I’ll be back with the results of my tests
Trainee
The spine is much ado about nothing. I had a hard time understanding it. Now that I understand it, I find I don’t care. Get the book “The New Advanced Custom Rod Building” by Dale P. Clemens. It’s a good hardbound and only $29.95. You won’t have any more questions about the spine, or where to put the guides.
Kirkman’s book will not tell you where to put the guides. Very frustrating.
But…in fly rods I don’t think it matters. It is a case of mind over matter. If you don’t mind…it don’t matter.
50 years ago I fly fished with a short fiberglass rod, and I could lay a fly under branches, over a log to dangle it above stream and them flop it back over, BOUNCE it off an 8" diameter tree limb just above the water…or land it on a rock and slowly tease it into the water. This is long before graphite rods.
Manafactures place the guides on the straightest axis because that is what a customer looks at when he picks up a rod and sights down the shaft. I had a manafacturer tell me that directly today on the phone. Yet you can buy very good store bought rods. Technically spine on top will be in play when fighting a fish and on the backcast. Spine on bottom…would be in play on the forward cast. But you are not going to notice one way or the other.
Today I took my 9’ 6wt two piece rod and turned the tip section slightly more than 45 degrees from the bottom section…my tip section guides were pointing at 1:00pm and my bottom section guides were facing straight down to the water/ground. I cast for 2 hours and really wasn’t technically paying attention to the differences, because I was FISHING…BUT…I didn’t “NOTICE” any difference in my fly placement or casting, or distance!
If you place each end of a rod section on a support and weight it in the center…it will flip. Now you have a ceral bowl shape. INSIDE the cereal bowl is the weakest axis, or opposite the effective spine. The OUTSIDE of the cereal bowl is the effective spine. Place guides according to how you want them.
However if you support one end say 2 foot away from the true end…you will get a different effective spine. It shifts up and down the entire rod. You will not be getting the average effective spine of the entire rod…but the point is it is different all up and down the rod. So it is no big deal. Read the book to get a good understanding of it. But a lot of people who know all about the spine disregard it in building their rods. They build on the stiffest axis or maybe even just on the straightest axis. Point is don’t lose any sleep over it. Please see the topic “Guide Placement” by Orthoman…read Tyflier’s comments and JC’s. Their comments do not show overly concern for the “precise” spine location.
Hope this helps…
Gem
[This message has been edited by Plain Old Jim (edited 11 January 2006).]
[This message has been edited by Plain Old Jim (edited 11 January 2006).]
When I spoke with the fellows at Sage about this topic they told me they don’t check spines for guide placement, they place them based on the straightest visual line. Admittedly this is for people who go into the fly shop, pick up a rod and sight down it like it’s a rifle. That being said, they also told me that the blank technology is so much more advanced the spine or spines do not play as much of a role as they used to. After this conversation(which started because I kept finding multiple spines with very little difference), I opted to go with the little white dot they put on their blanks marking the straightest visual line. I guess in the end you just have to evaluate the advice you get, make a decision you’re comfortable with, and as J Castwell said “Sleep well.”
Trainee:
I just modified my Cabela’s spine finder into bookends!
POJ tried to talk me out of it awhile back but now I see he has gone over to the dark side too!
I feel more like I do now than I did when I got here!
Cactus
When I built my first graphite, I was really horrified that if I didnt get the spine right, the rod would be a dust catcher. Then a rodbuilder on one of the sites suggested that if it was straight that would be good enough unless I was fishing for tarpon…trout just don’t get that big. I agree with JC…Get 'R Straight and lace her up. Since I started doing that, I have slept well.
dleo, you are absolutely correct…wrap um for straight and fish um.
If spining a rod added to the performance rod makers would do it…but few do, Sage I know does not. When I called Sage to find out what the white dots meant by the ferrules the reply was “that is where we would align the sections to get the rod as straight as possible”…nothing to do with spine, spline - whatever.
No the spine is not the stiffest side. It is the softest side. Pressure the rod into a curve and when it spins to a spot and then stays put you have found it. Mark the outside of that curve as the effective spine.
Over the last few years many rod builders have found out that this spine thing is really a load of &*%$# and not worth worrying over. More and more builders are just building their rods along the straightest side of the blank and the result is one sweet casting and fishing rod.
Kirkman’s book tells you that spine doesn’t really matter. That’s why he doesn’t tell you where to put the guides. I think there are photos in there showing why the spine doesn’t really do what so many other authors claim it does. There is some sort of statement about trying the most popular positions for yourself and then deciding which you like the best.
Wow thanks for all the replies. I think I have decided to just put the guides on the straightest edge because it seems to win the majority vote.Now to figure out wich side is the straightest.Thanks again
Ben