I have been told that TU has taken the stance to try prevent the drilling for oil in northern AK. I find this to be a little off course. I would like to read what others feel about TU’s petition to prevent this drilling.
FYI: My TU membership was up for renewal and I declined. This and other TU actions are not totally in line with my beleifs. However, I do believe that they have a history of contributing much good
Typical of TU. For years I’ve gotten newsletters from TU asking me to help stop irresponsible coal mining in and around Co. Following all their links, I can find no examples of “irresponsible coal mining”. It just seems to be any coal mining. They saw my last dollars some years ago.
Seems they went from a conservation outfit to wacko environmentalism. Guess no one told them there are petroleum products in those rubber wading soles they advocate.
Chewydog I hear ya on them wearing the rubber soled wading shoes. Kind of like the protesters at Northwest logging sites. Guess they don’t know all those signs they are holding up are on sticks and paper made from timber products.
We should all look at all of the good sounding organizations that try to get money from us to do their good works. Too often, behind the “good works” are other works that are completely against our core beliefs. For years while working for in corporate offices I refused to support “The United Way” because of some of the groups they provide funding for. AARP has been trying to get me to join for at least 15 years. However, I disagree with their politcal stance on partically every turn. I don’t have a lot of money and am darn particular about who I give it to.
A lot of you folks better get up to speed and pay attention to this. Here is U.S. map of the shale deposites thus far doscovered that are going to be developed using the fracking method:
http://politicalclimate.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/us-shale-gas-formations.png
and some info on the fracking process:
http://www.bayjournal.com/article.cfm?article=3715
just one point of view on it there. My own personal view is we need this process but we must do it in a responsible manner. My family has had some wells on their property for some time now and never had a problem but that is not to say accidents don’t happen. all of our actions in life contain a certain amount of risk. It is our responsiblity to identify, minimze and do our best to manage that risk. It is going to take the states, the feds, you and me along with private conservation groups working together to do this in as environmentally sound way as we can. Leave the plotical agendas and Eco-Nazis at home as they do more harm than good.
Well said Eric. I see not reason with modern technologies we cannot have our cake and eat it too. I know of one company that has been using gas off the field on the east MS/ west AL border for over 25 years. The great thing about methane is we are also producing it from landfills. CNG as a fuel is clean and potentially plentiful.
Guys, it seems to me that any group that supports fishing should also do its level best to protect the environment that the fish live in. I am not saying that drilling and mining should not be allowed, just that there needs to be a realy good reason to risk such a wild and remote environment.
What are the safe gaurds in place, do you trust the oil companys to do the right thing or will they always take every shortcut they can get away with to maximise profits? Will the state agency’s enforce the rules as they should or will a donation in the right place remove any restrictions? How will they clean up any spills or repair any damage, is it even possible to do so?
Surely you want a fishing club to at least ask these questions and if the answers are not good then to try to stop it from going ahead?
All the best.
Mike
Mike,
Do not take us wrong. Trust the oil companies to do the right thing on their own, not in a thousand years. But it has become unacceptable socially and legally to violate law and rules. What we are saying, is we question the motives of Trout Unlimited management also. I believe most Americans are willing to take an ACCEPTABLE risk to provide for the good of the country, ourselves and our fellow man. We also know we pay too great a price because there are people who would have us living in caves only burning wood from trees fallen by natural forces. The ANWAR site represents such a small area in comparison with the whole, it is a postage stamp on a football field. It is also a barren frozen sites that 99.99% of the population will never see except in print or online images. We remember what an disaster the pipeline was forecast was being and the negative effect on the caribou herds. The herds have increase and like the pipeline, it’s warm.
It is difficult even for us born here to comprehend the physical vastness of this nation. Same with our Canadian neighbors in regards to the size of that nation. However even given the immense size of our nations we are acutely aware of the need to be responsible stewards, to conserve, protect and utilize wisely the natural resources that we have. No doubt we could do better but just because an organization like TU looks good, sounds good, even has a good reputation does not meant that their agenda is the best things for all people at all times.
I wish you could all get the PCN network. The issue of development of the shale fracking is being hotly debated right now by our general assembly. Do I trust 100% the energy companies, the state or even groups like TU? No I do not! Please do remember that Pennsylvania is the home of the oil industry. We have learned a lot from our mistakes since Drake sank that first successful well in Titusville, Pennsylvania. At one time our rivers and streams were so polluted that most of the native wild critters in them died off or were unfit for consumption. However consider this; even at the great cost to the environment then if
Drake had not persevered and succeeded the cost would have been far greater to the global environment. Virtually if not literally every species of whale would have long ago been extinct but especially the sperm whale. Drake gave us the ability to cheaply, easily refine kerosene for our lamps. Why is that important? Because prior to what Drake accomplished the world used primarily two things for fuel to light the lamps. Coal oil and whale oil. What Drake started was easier than converting cannel coal to fuel, much safer than whaling and more cost effective than both.
There is something else to be considered here. Given the rising global demand for energy along with the rising cost of it sooner or later some overpopulated, powerful, militarily advanced nation is going to decide that it is cheaper to take what they need by force rather than by purchase. That means W.W.III folks! If we can become even better at energy conservation, develop more efficient machinery and develop our natural resources for the world to use in an environmentally sound manner, well, all of that would go a long way in avoiding any potential military action over energy.
Here are some things you might enjoy reading:
http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/stateparks/parks/oilcreek/oilcreek_history.aspx
http://www.petroleumhistory.org/OilHistory/pages/Whale/whale.html
and you can have fun while learining too:
Why the OCTRR? Because it is a beautiful train ride, educational and oil creek is a very good recovered fishery.
I would also like to ask folks not to abandon your local T.U. chapter, because you have a (singular) beef with National’s policies. Your chapters need all the support you can give them, to do the “hands on” or “on the ground” work on YOUR LOCAL streams. I’ve been ‘ticked’ myself a few times about some T.U. issues, but never in a million years, would I leave my dedicated local TUers for an issue that has absolutely nothing to do with the work being performed locally. You’d only be cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Send a letter to National? YES! Quit T.U.? NO! That would be counter-productive, and a complete over-reaction, IMHO. Think about who you are really hurting - maybe yourself, and your buddies. Thanks for your consideration on this issue.
Respectfully yours, Dave S.
What are you guys saying, TU shouldn’t protect the environment? In PA, greedy politicians have allowed gas drilling with practically no limitations and safeguards just to sell the rights. We’ve already had gas mine failures in PA. Plus one more thing no one here has mentioned is that there is no long range data on what this type of mining will do to the environment 30 years from now. That garbage water that’s left over from pushing out the gas will go somewhere sooner or later. We need to have safeguards in place, which we don’t. I realize we need fuel, but it has to be responsibly mined. Where I lived there are 3 gas mines at the headwaters of a naturally reproducing trout stream.
Have these gas mines had as much effect on wild trout reproduction and fish populations as the Norfolk Southern train that derailed a few years back? Has TU taken a stance to ban freight trains which have a higher accident rate than gas or oil wells and a documented effect if some “garbage” spills? What bans are they pushing for with the trucking industry? A truck accident once wiped out MY home stream when a truck filled with soap overturned on a bridge. Or how about banning farming or the use of insecticides in agriculture since a farming accident also wiped out another favorite stream of mine.
The problem many folks have with stances like this one from TU is they are knee-jerk reactions based on popular paranoia or statistics from an apple to oranges situation from 100 years ago. They typically choose the most convenient and publicised battles espousing a “it’s better than doing nothing” attitude which hits folks in their pocketbook without necessarily showing them hard evidence as to why they should agree. Their championing of the felt ban immediately comes to mind.
As evidenced by the derailment on the Little Portage Creek, all kinds of fish killing accidents happen. Nobody likes them, they are sad and frustrating but in most cases things rebound in time, just like the Little Portage Creek is doing right now with the help of the same state organizations and “greedy politicians” that are chastised by the anti-gas drilling crowd for doing nothing. In the case of the Norfolk Southern spill, intervention by DEP and PAFBC, coupled with severe fines and additional voluntary restitution from the railroad aided that process; the same thing that has happened in every other spill and will happen when the next one occurs. NO responsible party these days gets off the proverbial clean-up hook unless you advocate capitol punishment for incidents determined to be accidental.
I don’t like mixing water with my whiskey or politics with my fishing but its especially annoying when the leading trout advocates, endorse policies that are forcing me to spend $100’s on new wading shoes and inching me towards $5 a gallon gas. Fortunately in my case, I have chosen to offset some of that added expense off the top of the dues money I would have sent TU if I was interested in belonging to their organization.
You have some very good points, Bamboozle. There are 2 sides to every story.
[b]Bruce
[/b]
Bamboozle,
Well said, Sir!
Brad
It’s nice to calmly discuss things like this that are so near & dear without having it explode like it seems to do everywhere else!! Every side to every story matters to me as well.
I tip my hat to you Bruce!
Bamboozle,
I’m not following your logic, nor the examples you give to justify your logic. All environmental accidents are regrettable. There is no, my disaster is bigger than your disaster! I don’t know what apples and oranges situation from a 100 yrs. ago, you are referring to? I know that many watershed groups (to include T.U.) in Pa.,are in the process of trying to stop and reverse the damage caused by acid mine damage (AMD). This stuff is no ones ‘figment of their imagination’. I see and smell AMD every day! This is very real and is NOT going away any time soon, so you will have to forgive me if I’m skeptical about the current situation with the Marcellus gas. You do know that there have been numerous violations/problems already attributed to this industry? I’m not happy with the felt sole decision either, but neither am I going to throw the baby out with the bath water. The DEP had it’s manpower severely cut, leaving Pa. vulnerable to abuse. T.U. is in the process of trying to train folks, so we know what to look for if we see something going on in our various watersheds. Is that wrong? And no, we are not going to ban trains/trucks any more then we would advocate banning cars, because someone might drink and drive, or speed, or flip one over into a creek, or whatever. That would be ridiculous! By the way - Pa. does not get one penny from the gas that is extracted! I say again - how asinine is that??? That’s the money we could be using to mitigate the damage! Another point : T.U. is not in the habit of making “knee jerk” decisions - they have in fact, highly trained/accredited professionals at their disposal, who have been at the forefront of fisheries/environmental issues for years. Many of the state chapters have highly knowledgeable biologist/professors as members and on their local boards. These people are not idiots!! If you think the price of gas is high, wait till you get the bill for mitigating the damage from this industry. I will guarantee you that I would have a lot more money for gas, to go fishing, if I stopped all personal involvement in trying to help fix the problem of AMD alone! We, out here in the trenches are not blind - remember the shake-up at T.U. National, when they would not address stream access? You have got to play in the game, if you want the game to go your way! I apologize, in advance, if it seems like I’m taking this too personal, I have a lot of blood/sweat/time/mosquito & blackfly bites and money, invested in this. Thanks for listening. BTW - Our local AMD settling ponds are doing a lot about the acid, but ALL the aluminum is still going into the creek!
Respectfully yours, Dave S.
Dave:
My point was simple, just because things were, doesn’t mean they have to be; in other words, just because the coal & lumber barons raped the Commonwealth and severely damaged the resource in an era with zero regulations or repercussions doesn’t mean all extractions of energy or materials going forward will end up in the same place. That’s the same paranoia that got us no new nuclear facilities since TMI, a moratorium on oil drilling when oil is topping $100 a barrel and carbon taxes when there is still a foot of snow in my driveway!
I am not a pessimist when it comes to energy exploration. I have faith that more often than not things will turn out OK despite the sensationalism of the infrequent accidents. Maybe I’m naive but if I examine the statistics of the last 10 years as opposed to the last 100, I realize it is better to look ahead and more closely behind than to allow ourselves to mired in what happened a century ago. In addition as I implied with the train & truck analogies; there are many other threats out there that pose an even greater REAL risk to trout fisheries yet they are being ignored by TU because they are tougher to gain support for or are perceived as unrealistic.
You can say that all you want but saying it doesn’t make it any truer. Do you really think for one minute that Pennsylvania, the state that has one of the highest gasoline taxes in the country, a state who takes a higher percentage of the profit from casinos than the OWNERS get and charges MILLIONS and millions for casino licenses, a state which taxes liquor at one of the highest rates in the country and even requires a different licence and fee if you want to sell beer on a Sunday is going to let a cash cow like natural gas drillers get away with paying NOTHING!! I know you are smarter than that. 
Do your homework and call your local reps, DEP and the gas companies and ask them if the drillers are getting a free ride. PA gets drilling permit fees which just went up, corporate profit taxes and other taxes and increased income taxes from the private lease holders. They also get 100% of the lease revenue on state owned land and they are receiving additional revenue investments for mitigation and infrastructure improvements. Infrastructure that will benefit everyone. THAT is a verifiable fact.
In regards to TU; I did my share of rock rolling and fund raising in TU even serving as a chapter president and on several boards of directors in the days before TU became nothing more to me than another extreme environmental group that focused less on fishing and more on politics. At that point I walked away, went fishing and never came back.
I’m happy this issue is near & dear to you and I respect your position. I was just hoping to help some folks understand why TU isn’t for every trout fisherman out there.
Dave,
I agree with Bamboozle on this thing. He is talking about comparing oil and gas drilling technology of the past to that of today.
Don’t even get me started on TU. just like a lot of other organizations they don’t automatically get my money because they have something to do with something I enjoy doing. I was born and raised in Northwestern Pa. You talk about mine run off go visit Venango, Mercer or Butler Counties sometime. T.U. answer to that in those counties was to back fill all of the old open pit strip mines even though most of them were not contributing to the acid mine run off and had become excellent warm water fisheries. They did not go after the deep mines that were causing the majority of the problems. Could it have something to do with receiving state and federal funding or donations from the labor unions and their employees? I think it was that and those words “warm water fishery”. We backfilled the open pit mines that were legitimately dangerous and have preserved the rest as the great fisheries they have become.
Where was TU when a group of kids and adults in a Junior High School Hunting and Fishing club needed money to do a stream improvement project on a local trout stream even though we were all members of TU? We were told that since we already had the state and Bessemer & Lake Erie Rail Road working with us to raise any additional funds ourselves so we did just exactly that. After the work was done successfully by the club TU tried to horn in on the credit. That went over like flatulence on a Church pew. Got straightened out real quick too.
Where is TU on the issues of cleaning up and restoring the Susquehanna River and Juniata River fisheries? After all the agricultural and mine run off issues ultimately come from their TU supported waters. Bet it has some thing to do with that “warm waters fishery” thing again. Why is it that the local sportsman’s club along with the state will stock some additional waters as put and take with trout for kids derbies but TU refuses too? TU is also one of the outfits that participates in the Combined Federal Campaign so they can take part in getting funds from the, as I like to call it, shake down of Federal Employees for money. That shake down causes several work stoppages and where I work that means some troops did not get their freight on time when all that is needed is an email.
Once upon a time TU really did do a lot of good but over the years they have as you said played the game thereby becoming just another lobbying group with their hand out. They do put out some effort in the field and the folks out there in the field do a good job for the most part but TU as a whole is just not something I will give my hard earned money too.
What you do is up to you. I still like you one way or the other though.
Hey Bamboozle dang man you beat me to it with your reply! 
I had to stop and eat during mine and that takes time as my simple mind isn’t that quick.;-)
Please. I used to work for United Refining Company of Pa. They do more and invest more in protecting the environment thane you, me and the state combined. If you have a prticular company, group or politician in mind then single them out. Don’t lump them all together. companies like URC have done a lot to clean up the image left behind of the oil industry from the days gone by that I saw as a kid growing up near Franklin, Rouseville, Emlenton, Warren, Titusville and Oil City, Pennsylvania.
The Allegheny River flows literally right past the URC refinery in Warren, Pennsylvania. It is one of the finest, most well cared for walleye fisheries you will ever see. Several of my friends take their breaks from work at the refinery wetting both fly and spinning lines there. Not unusual for them to catch their limit of 15" walleye in just a few minutes while throwing the big ones 22"+ back in.
Want to meet a responsible refiner? Here is their link:
Largest Independent Privately Owned Refinery In North America:
I miss my friends there. Like me they like to hunt and fish. They are great stewards of the environment and run the company in a responsible manner.