Okay, when building a 4 piece short (6’6") rod, is the placement of the guides in relationship to the spine a major concern?
I’ve built about a dozen rods and was able to identify where the spine was. The guides were placed on the opposite side. I’m just wondering if the same rationale holds true with more and much shorter pieces? Also, how do you identify the spine on sections that are about 19.5 inches?
Thanks.
Allan
Tyeflies,
The word lately is to just keep the rod straight. I am not sure I agree - I am not completely sold on that one just yet.
I am still of the old school and like to spine my rod the old way. By bending it and locating the side the spine is on.
With a 4+ piece rod the thicker short sections need a muscle man to bend them. On those sections I don’t believe it matters but I on the upper sections I still identify the spine and place the guides accordingly.
Now then, anyone ready to open the argument of where the guides should be placed in relation to the spine?
Let No One Walk Alone
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Bill
I’ve given the spine issue some thought. Research tells me that the spine on multi piece rods changes when the rod is assembled. I read that somewhere but can not verify it.
I never figured out where to put the guides, on the spine, at 90 degs to the spine, weak side, hard side. What difference does choosing the position of the guides make?
I found that few if any major rod manufacturers spine their rods, they wrap um for straight.
I have placed guides on the spine off the spine and not paying any attention to the spine whatsoever…I can’t tell a whit of difference in any of um.
If I am purchasing a new rod and sight down it and see a dog leg in it I don’t buy it wheather it has been spined or not.
I try to spine my sections, but if there is an obvious curve to the blank, I’ll put the guides in line with that. With the minimal impact the spine of the rod has with modern compsites (IMO), I would rather have the guides aligned with the curve of the blank. I normally use multi-piece blanks for 90% of my building, and straightness isn’t usually an issue. So if I can fine a spine, I’ll use it, and if I can’t find it, I refuse to believe it will impact my fishing or casting (and I’m not too convinced it will impact anything significantly in any case). On a 4 piece 6’6" blank, you will probably only have to worry about the top 1 or 2 sections. But don’t get too worried about it either way.
“Now then, anyone ready to open the argument of where the guides should be placed in relation to the spine?” Nope. I personally don’t think it matters. You can make a good case for either one, but I think the spine impact is negligible in real world terms.
OK, at least I get an opinion. Stick all the sections together… adjust untill the rod is straight. Next. hold by the butt end and ‘sight’ down the rod. Roll the rod until you find where it ‘droops’ the most. It will have a side that is the most ‘up’ and opposite that where it is the most down. I like a rod that has the guides on the ‘down’ side. You can test this yourself at a fly shop first if you like. Sight down a high-end rod. When you roll the rod to the ‘guides on top’ you can often see right down thru the whole string of them.
JC…my theory is just the opposite of yours. When I get’er lined up for straight I put the guides on the side that is on the other side of the side that turns up. Thataway the weight of the guides will straighten’er out when the rod is unlined. Course when you put the line on all this is nulified.
Jer, you might be right. It just seems when I sight down rods at fly shops they are like I mentioned. 
JC,
I have a different story:
I grew up in Southern California and watched fisherman bring in rods that were twisted or broke due to the strain put on the blank while fighting a big tuna.
I was told this was because the rod was not built by a custom rod-builder so the guides were not aligned with the spine. They stated even the expensive rods broke because the manufacturers were too cheap to line up the guides with the spine. The story went that guides when placed off the spine would cause the rod to twist eventually exploding the blank. The twisted rods I saw confirmed this theory and the broken rods I saw had pretty much exploded to pieces.
I heard others say differently so I questioned some expert rod-builders on the guide location. Funny thing even though I questioned Owners and CEO?s of companies like Sage, Scott, Loomis, Fenwick, Powell, and others I always received a completely different answer. I could not get two answers the same.
For this reason I have gone back to lining my guides along the spine. I don?t care about straight ? I care about performance. Casting performance, while changed, is negligible - very few casters can tell the difference. I do care about performance while fishing and how the rod will stand up to large fish ? so I do as I observed as a kid. I align the guides with the natural bend of the rod.
Hopefully my 2wt will stand up to that 5lb Bass I keep looking for!
Let No One Walk Alone
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Bill
Well ok, but Steve just cast over 120 feet with a factory G.Loomis rod. That is pretty good.
JC,
At one time I cast with Steve - it was no competition, he was always about 50’ farther than I could cast. He is one fine caster!
That was the ACA Steelhead Distance event.
Let No One Walk Alone
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Bill
Buzz, thanks buddy. I got it wrong and you caught it. I agree with you. Stupid mistake on my part.
Pan, correct me on this, but isn’t Powell the only one that still builds rods after determining where the spine it? Think I read that some place, sure can’t say where though. The others just make the as straight as they can cause guys like to buy rods that are straight.
I got the Sage video tour of the factory and their people put the rod sections together and move them around to find the straightest combination. I’ve built rods both ways, and the one that I built alilgning with the spine of the rod is crooked as a dogs hind leg. Bus the heck out of me when I look down that rod, even when I’m just fishing with it and holding out in front of me stipping line in. Im just betting that all things considered there probably isn’t a real noticeable difference in either way in practical use.
These are the idle thoughts that posses a man’s mind when he’s not able to fish.
And too, I have heard that if you do line up the spine, then what? I mean, if you put the guides on one side will it help the cast and if on the opposite side it will help the rod for landing a fish? I don’t know. Really. Seems there are great cases made for all ‘sides’. So, like I said, for me, just make 'em straight. 
I took my 9’ 2piece rod to the creek and intentionally assembled it wrong. I set the tip section 45 degrees off to the right. So on the butt section the guides pointed straight down of course, and the tipp section the guides pointed parrallel to earth. I cast, and caught and released fish for over two hours before I remembered to think about the offset rod. I didn’t even notice it during my fishing period.
Gem
Panfisher, I have a quick question that is most likely due to my incomplete knowledge of the physics of a fly rod under load. How can a twisting load on a blank be impacted by the placement of guides relative to the spine? It appears to me that spine affects the bending of the rod along a single axis, but once you introduce significant enough twist to possibly break the rod, I would assume that the spine becomes insignificant or leaves the equation all together. Can someone enlighten me a bit?
Tyeflies, like JC said, whether you line the guides up near side or far side of the spine will be determined whether you want some extra stiffness on your forward casting stroke or on your backcast/fishfighting.
All in All I don’t know that it all makes that much difference.
Most of what I have seen indicates to me that it does make a difference but such a small difference especially in performance that very few casters can notice it. I?ve only noticed the difference when I used to cast for accuracy and distance (Tournament Casting). I perceived that I could get a smoother lay down with the guides placed in-line with the spine.
ol’ blue,
My assumption (or guess) is that a blank wants to settle in a certain bend under pressure. When the guides are placed say 90 degrees off of that a large fish can put enough pressure on the guides to force the blank to turn in a different direction that its natural bend. Forcing the blank to bend in such a way that the natural bend is violated twisting the blank to accommodate the new pressure.
Notice I said ?guess? on that ? I have never tried to figure it out scientifically. Mostly I just know what I have observed. I?ve gone out on a Party boat and watched someone hook into a big tuna. Next thing you know the guides on his rod spiral around the blank instead of being straight like they were before fighting the fish. I would assume this requires a great more pressure than the rod was actually designed for, but you never know when you might hook up with something un-expected. I once hooked into a huge Salmon on a 5wt rod. I got it in but worried about the rod snapping the whole time.
JC,
When I questioned these people it was in the 1980?s so things might be out-of-date for today. I?m not sure what company might be doing what today. It was just interesting that when questioning everyone I met at a show, FFF conclave, etc. I always got a different answer.
I get the impression nowadays the manufacturers place the guides with sales in mind; some place the guides with casting in mind, others for various reasons.
I finally just decided to follow what I observed. The rod wants to bend in a certain direction ? Let it. If building a Fly or spinning rod the guides are on the bottom so I place the guides on the inside of the curve when the blank is bent in the way it wants to go. If building a casting or ocean rod the guides are on top so I put the guides outside of the curve when the blank is bent in the way it wants to go.
In short I gave up on getting a straight answer so just I just did it in a way that followed my experience and made the most logical sense to me. I have done it this way now for over 20 years and have never had a rod break on a fish so I keep doing it.
Let No One Walk Alone
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Bill
During my research, mostly on rod building boards, I found a statement by someone who said if you don’t spine um, say the spine is completely lost in the assembly of the rod. Perhaps the spine on the butt section is 30 deg to the casters left and 60 deg to the right in the tip section it will put so much “torque” in the rod as to cause errant casts. My reasoning was the rod and line is going to follow the path of the force applied to it wheather that is the action of the caster or the weight of the line.
I quit spineing rods 6-7 rods ago. If you didn’t know it you couldn’t tell.
I built a rod on a Loomis IMX blank. IMX blanks are know for their crookedness. It is a 2 pc 2 wt with compound bends. It curved one way and then the other in the same section. By the positioning of both sections and guide placement I was able to at least make it “look” straight. If you sight down it it actually looks straight. I probably would not have built the rod if I worried about spine.
[This message has been edited by Buzz (edited 16 June 2006).]
Rod makers continue to make rods that have walls that are the same thickness. This is something which can be controlled. They are made by wrapping a sheet of material around a rod which leaves a starting and stopping point. Today’s rods have much less spine than some earlier ones may have had. At least one company claims to have achieved a shaft with virtually no spine at all. With the guides placed on the bottom of the rod, the strain while fighting a fish does not tend to twist a rod as it might with a rod with guides on top. In reality, the only twist introduced would be on one’s back cast and that would be if he indeed kept his reel on top of the rod during the cast.
bout 30 years ago I started building rods and enjoyed it very much. All were fiberglass rods which eventually moved into half and half. As more graphite was placed in the rods more and more manufacturers clearly stated to not worry about the spine. Just a little info i remember thought it might help