You know what, in addition to the TFO, I own a Sage rod, a Scott rod, a Ross reel, a Lamson Velocity, and a Sage reel. I’m not putting down those products whatsoever.
I like TFO rods, and have fished them for a while now. I will say, however, that the 3wt is not my favorite light-line rod. A couple weeks ago, I had the opporunity to fish my Dad’s 3wt TFO Pro, and it just didn’t have the sort of action that I like on small streams. I like a slower rod, even in pocket water.
That being said, I built a Sage Xi2 8weight last year, and now I am wishing I had just bought a TFO and saved a bunch of dough.
I spent a day last summer fishing a 10wt TFO Pro series(IIRC) in the Chesapeak Bay and I thought my arm was going to fall off. Yuck. That said, however, I fish mostly 3-5wts year round while chasing trout and smallies at home and have NO idea what the competitions 10wt would cast like. So I don’t draw a conclusion from this experience. Nothing to compare it to. Might just be the nature of a 10wt. Or a poor line choice, or that 8" long drowned rat that I was throwing.
Having been in high end specialty retail for a number of years, there is one aspect of TFO that don’t care for. Cabela’s and Gander Mtn will sell you a Korean made fly rod for 30-60 bux. TFO starts at $89 IIRC. Same materials made in the same place. It’s all about shades of grey or degrees of seperation. They’re significantly overpriced, still expensive IMHO.
But again, I have relatively little experience fishing with them. Never used a 3, 4 or 5 wt to compare to my domestic rods. They just seem expensive to me for a Korean made rod…someone will surely shoot holes in this rhetoric, but I doubt it changes my views.
I’ve suspected those Cabelas, Bass Pro, and Gander Mountain rods were manufactured overseas.
In any case, without being an expert in rod design, I suspect the parameter space within which fly rod design takes place is relatively small, and there are likely very few design improvements in graphite rods still to be made. We’re going to hear about new technology in the marketing brochures all right, but these will be small incremental improvements, possibly even so small as to be meaningless. But it’s very unlikely there will be new technology that really opens up the parameter space in the way graphite did 30 years ago.
These parallels exactly what happened in golf club and tennis racquets once the designers understood what they could do with the new materials.
One thing though, if you think a quality product can’t be manufactured in Korea or anywhere else in Asia, you’re making a big mistake.
Ligonier, the main problem with your rhetoric is that you are making it sound like there is some sort of Korean national standard fly rod and different American companies are just all selling the same thing with different labeling and promotion. Its entirely possible that the range of input cost and final quality of fly rods made in Korea equals that of rods made here in the USA. (notice I said range, not that their quality is equal)
I’m sure you would not say that a St. Croix Premier series rod is equal to a Sage XP or a Winston LT. That being said, we need to realize that a lot of different levels of qualities of rods come out of Korea as well.
Just out of curiosity. Has anyone ever heard or seen a complaint about Temple Fork rods that didn’t mention Korea
Yeah, I have. I don’t really care where a rod is made.
I have a TFO Pro Series 6 weight, I use it for smallmouth and on bigger water for trout, but last weekend I got so sick of casting it that I switched to my St. Croix 5 weight. I plan on trading it in at a fly shop to go towards another 6 weight. This particular rod isn’t for me.
I used to have a TFO 3 weight, that wasn’t part of the Lefty Kreh Series. I loved it because it had some backbone and I could cast buggers with some split shot manageably. But I gave it to my brother so that he could get started in fly fishing.
Ligonier, one concern with your take on it, though, is that there are also differing quality standards. For ex. a lot of power tools are made in China, some are sold here with no names or “house” names, while others are sold under highly recognized names. The quality of a Chinese made scroll saw for Delta is far higher than the quality of the “same” Chinese made scroll saw for, say, Harbor Freight’s house brand (Chicago Electric). The HF brand may actually just be scroll saws that could not stand up to Delta’s standards. The same COULD (and I stress “could”) be the case for the TFO rods vs. the GM/Cabela’s/etc. rods. Or there are lesser expensive components used on the “house brand” rods vs. the TFO rods, again, the HF brand may use plain bearings in their power tools while the Craftsman version of the same tool uses ball bearings per Craftsman’s specifications.
This is purely conjecture on my part as to why there is a price disparity of the TFO’s compared to the house brands, assuming that they are, in fact, made by the same company (and more than likely, if so, in the same factory).
BigFlatBrook, lots of folks confuse design specifications with manufactured quality.
It is my observation that when most folks talk about the “quality” of a rod, they actually mean the intrinsic characteristics and trim selection.
Jim
[This message has been edited by nowindknots (edited 02 June 2005).]
I agree that the Korean-made thing should be a separate argument. I think it’s a bad attempt to throw doubt over a product that a lot of people obviously like.
BUT…
Every time I come across a TFO, I give it a shot thinking maybe I’ll like it. And every time I’m disappointed. I see all the rave reviews about them and wonder why. They just don’t feel right to me, dead or something.
They are not that much cheaper than some of the Sage rods, so I’d rather have the low end Sage than a TFO. I intend on keeping my fly rods for decades so an extra $100 in the long run is not that much (but I also won’t spend $500). In addition, the cork is very low quality in my opinion. Since that’s the place I’m grabbing the thing, I’m pretty set on a better quality of handle. Good warranty but not that uncommon either. Overall, they seem to be OK for a beginnner or a backup, or maybe even a niche rod that you don’t use that much.
I guess they just don’t suit me, and it has nothing to do with where they’re made.
Just out of curiosity. Has anyone ever heard or seen a complaint about Temple Fork rods that didn’t mention Korea?
yeah. here’s one.
they are the absolute ugliest stick available on the market. a situation easily rectified by hiring a professional to design the graphics. we were talking about this the other day. truth be told the ugly graphics don’t matter a whit. it is all about performance.
Nowindknots,
I dig. But my point was partly that I don’t think there are that many variables to play with in fly rod design.
It was a lot tougher to experiment with tapers when it took many months to build a bamboo fly rod.
There are inherent advantages to graphite (though I don’t wish to get into an argument about graphite versus bamboo), but one of the advantages is that it’s a lot easier to turn around a design and test it when you’re working with graphite. As someone else pointed out on a different thread, the development of new resins has probably been the most important innovation since graphite was introduced.
But I don’t think any of that is propietary to a particular rod builder. It would be interesting if anyone happened to know something about the patent portfolio of these different companies. If they have one, what they cover, some brief description of the technologies. I would find that interesting.
I guess that could be discussed online since all patents are public.
I would have to say they are not 1/2 as ugly as the new SAGE rods.
As ugly as some of the new Sage rods are, TFO’s are still a little uglier.
Except I do kinda like the TiCrxyxzb.3 ( or whatever it is). I like the blue and grey.
Though I think St. Croix has the absolute cheesiest graphic going. Difference is their rods are indisputably great so who cares.
I have a 2wt TFO rod. Its my only rod as of now. So, I really cant compare it to any other rod. And to be honest as much as I’d like to try a higher end Sage, Winston and such I just cant afford them right now. So what do I do? I’ll go with a rod that is inexpensive and that works well for me. So my next rod will be another TFO. The way I see it if it works well for your casting style or techniques then you cant compare it to any other rod regardless of price or where its made.
Wow, I didn’t mean to stir up opinions this much. I was just looking for a good Rod at a fair price. I already have expensive rods but didn’t have a decent 3 weight rod. I went ahead a baught a 3 weight TFO 8’6" 4 peice rod. I tried out the Sage Launch, the St Criox Avid series, White River CV series, and about 4 other rods in the $150-$250 range and the TFO did feel the best to me. The only one I can say that I like almost as much for the money was the Sage. Keeping in mind this was the entry level Sage rod. I even tried w $560 winston and felt that the winston was too slow for me. I’m happy with the rod I got though and thanks for all the opinions. I look at it like cars. Damn if Chevy or Ford would build to the same Quality levels as Toyota then I would buy one but untill then I will buy Toyota.
brhokla,
Oh, this topic has been around before. It will probably come up again.
Enjoy fishing your new rod. I’m always scheming about how to get a new one myself.
I’ve got the 6 weight professional and love it. You must understand though, that before I bought that one, I had never spent more than $39.95 on a rod. All my money is squandered on fly tying materials, there’s none left to buy frivolous things like rods.
Eric
They are all opinions. I haven’t heard any complaints about actual defects or anything. TFO seems to shine in that regard. If you build, check out this review on TKF: [url=http://www.texaskayakfisherman.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28497:e7141]http://www.texaskayakfisherman.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28497[/url:e7141] .
My only “complaint” was not really a complaint as much as it is a review. Like I said, they just don’t suit me. These are not the only rods that don’t. Heck I think XPs feel sort of clunky. I was just sort of kidding on the ugly thing and wouldn’t have brought it up myself but it came up. I have a GL3 and some consider them sort of ugly.
One last thing: I would hate it if folks thought I was belittling them based on cost. I don’t spend much on rods either and have very few compared to most. I can appreciate not wanting to spend that extra $100-150. And for $90, they’re awesome rods for the price to get into the sport with.
[This message has been edited by preast (edited 02 June 2005).]